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Re: "Oil Pressure" & "old" overheating problem

To: "Robert E. Shlafer" <PilotRob@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: "Oil Pressure" & "old" overheating problem
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 07:43:49 -0700
Cc: "Peter C." <nosimport@mailbag.com>, spridgets@autox.team.net
References: <17601-3BB3296F-1952@storefull-225.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
I think you will find that Bob will mirror what Annice has said about his 
Bugeye not
overheating in any conditions.  I have talked to Bob on this in person and 
changed my
antifreeze to water ratio due to his suggestion.  One more thing Bob has said 
about
his Judson was that he had it installed originally by Judson technicians and 
tuned on
a dyno at the time.  He also remembers that they spent a lot of time adjusting 
the
Holley carb using the dyno. I am determined to try to make this work with the 
Holley
first.  Remember, Bob had his Judson installed on a factory new car.  If you 
think
about what is different than mine, he had original 4 ring pistons at stock bore 
and a
cast iron water pump with the cast impeller and a 2 row radiator.  I used to 
design
pumps with impellers on a much larger scale, but fluid dynamics are the same 
and I can
tell you impeller design makes all the difference.  I don't know if I am 
getting too
much flow or not enough.  Would going back to an original stock water pump 
improve
cooling?  Interesting to think about.  Another suggestion was made by Gerard to 
change
to a larger water pump pulley.  APT has one available, but they want 70 bucks 
for it.
I do not have an unlimited R&D department.  I have replaced the Chevy type 
thermostat
with an original sliding sleeve type ($35) to cover the bypass hole when it is 
open
which in effect works much like a blanking sleeve.  The blanking sleeve may 
flow more
water though.
     I'm sure the difference in Bob's car and mine lies in the fact that 
something is
not performing to factory specs combined with the extra oil ring.  Distributor
advancing too much at high RPM maybe, pump cavitating maybe, as you say a dyno 
will
tell.
An e mail inquiry to David Vizard confirmed that the extra oil ring would show a
noticeable temperature temperature rise due to friction, but this may be only 
one of
the things to cause my problem.  I'm convinced there are multiple deficiencies 
working
in concert causing the overheating at sustained highway cruising.  Remember the 
car
overheated with the SUH1s during break the in period with my rebuild setup 
also.  The
Judson is not the problem.   Eliminating possible problems like the carb 
leaning out
and an over advancing distributor or a cavitating pump is the direction to look 
in.
Short of an engine rebuild with stock pistons on a sleeve to bring it back to 
stock
bore, the 5th oil ring can't be changed.
Mike MacLean Supercharged

"Robert E. Shlafer" wrote:

> Well, this ain't it then, Mike!
>
> After reviewing all mails on this subject
> after getting up at 4AM or so this morning,
> beginning to think those 5 ring pistons along with stock exhaust system
> might be the culprits here.
>
> It is difficult for me to believe Annice and
> Bob had no overheating problems with
> their supercharged 948 under sustained highway cruise conditions in
> summer temps. she mentioned. Of course, "conservative" timing along with
> colder
> plugs and good octanes readily available
> back then (and a "new" cooling system)
> could definitely combine to allow this.
>
> Annice is well intended for sure but Bob
> is the real information source we need to
> hear from; as she states, he's the "hot
> rodder".
>
> And the Holley float bowl level was adjusted in accordance with Holley
> technician advice, eh? Yet, it quits
> at idle when hot (is it "loading up", Mike,
> or "leaning out"? Can you tell?)) and quits during hard cornering?
>
> Have a chassis dyno available anywhere
> nearby, Mike?
>
> We need diagnostics; is the distributer doing the right things here
> despite an
> apparenty accurate initial setting? What's
> really going on in the combustion process
> at a sustained high cruise rpm's? A chassis dyno session could tell us
> these
> things. Knowing the CO content of the
> mixture under sustained high rpm cruise
> conditions along with the EGT would be
> extremely helpful in trouble shooting.
>
> Annice states she and Bob had no problems at high cruise in summer
> temps.
> but a lister who posted a prior message
> earlier said he did, even under the circumstances of using an aluminum
> radiator!! This one I find hard to believe,
> assuming appropriate timing (for octane
> used), plugs, "blanking sleeve', etc.
>
> You sure seem to have covered all the bases in the other stuff I and
> other listers
> have brought up in the last day or so.
>
> What about a "blanking sleeve" instead of
> a stadt., Mike? And a Monza type "free
> flow" exhaust (as you don't want to use the Abarth), both of which
> should help
> somewhat in the temperature dept. in
> the meantime.
>
> As for apparent carb related stuff, how
> about the switch over to the SU or do
> you feel experimenting with the Holley
> by raising the float level a bit may prove
> productive. This would also richen the
> mixture off idle which would help in cruise.
>
> Dynoing seem the best bet to you, buddy?
>
> Cap'n. Bob
>     '61 :{)
>
>   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject: Re: "Oil Pressure" & "old" overheating problem
> Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 19:30:12 -0700
> From: Mike MacLean <macleans@earthlink.net>
> To: "Robert E. Shlafer" <PilotRob@webtv.net>
> CC: "Peter C." <nosimport@mailbag.com>, spridgets@autox.team.net
> References: <25817-3BB286D9-339@storefull-228.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
> Fins are in good shape.  A heck of a lot of them would have to separate to 
>cause a
> big problem.  I've had some ratty looking radiators in the past do an 
>acceptable
> job of cooling.
> Mike MacLean Supercharged 60 Sprite
>
> "Robert E. Shlafer" wrote:
>
> > Pete-
> >
> > You mean the fins have "separated" from
> > the core? Good point; I have heard of this
> > but not seen it, myself.
> >
> > Cap'n. Bob
> >     '61 :{)
> >
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Re: "Oil Pressure" & "old" overheating problem
> > Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 17:14:11 -0500
> > From: "Peter C." <nosimport@mailbag.com>
> > To: Mike MacLean <macleans@earthlink.net>
> > CC: spridgets@autox.team.net
> > References: <ea.1b695354.28e39b6c@aol.com>
> >
> > Mike,
> >          If you were to tell me that your car, any car, only gets hot to
> > over heating only when travelling at highway speeds, but stays cool enough
> > at in town speeds (assuming the 2 are not the same, which can be hard to
> > do), I would suggest that the fins have rotted off of your radiator. I know
> > that you have a new radiator, etc., but.... it makes me wonder.
> > ----Peter C
> > -
> > At 04:53 PM 9/26/2001, you wrote:
> > >Annice, Bob,
> > >      I envy your performance with your Judson in hot weather.  My problem 
>is
> > >different.  If I keep moving "in town" I'm O.K. water temp wise.  It is
> > >when I am
> > >on the freeway at extended high speeds that the temp continues to rise
> > >until it
> > >reaches the 212F mark and I have to pull off and let it cool down for 15
> > >minutes
> > >or so to continue on.



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