healeys
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Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs

To: Roland Wilhelmy <sentenac.rw@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs
From: Perry via Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net>
Date: Sun, 10 May 2020 22:16:03 -0400
Cc: "healeys@autox.team.net" <healeys@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: healeys@autox.team.net
Importance: normal
References: <2ccdc7dae00575deb90f48d98173e6fca61f0831@webmail> <030701d62723$c8940210$59bc0630$@sympatico.ca> <20200511014830.525C0A1703@autox.team.net> <CADpDe+a1L7UQsDy66Xm4ahomzjixozgHfo_L1-iCjZWMReVx-Q@mail.gmail.com> (Java/11.0.6)
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        boundary="_6890A7FD-A752-41F3-87E3-77AD79D73ECE_"

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

My understanding is that anti seize was developed for higher temperature th=
readed connections along with a few other things long ago..=20
If you look at recommendations from manufacturers of splined connections, l=
ike the slip joint in driveshafts, they say to use grease.=20

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Roland Wilhelmy
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 9:54 PM
To: Perry
Cc: healeys@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs

Maybe anti seize hadn't been invented when the manual was written.=C2=A0 An=
ti seize surely does get onto every surface once you apply it in one place.=
=C2=A0
-Roland

On Sun, May 10, 2020, 6:48 PM Perry via Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net> wr=
ote:
Yes this could turn into an all familiar thread on oils however lets just g=
o back to what every factory service/workshop manual all say about the main=
tenance or service of the wire wheel splines, =E2=80=9CA little grease shou=
ld be smeared upon the splines and cone faces of the hub and wheel before r=
efitting.=E2=80=9D
Perry
=C2=A0
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
=C2=A0
From: Mirek Sharp
Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:36 PM
To: 'Perry'
Perhaps a little tangential to the main thread, and fully aware of the like=
lihood of me being accused of being pedantic (which never happens on this l=
ist =E2=98=BA), but regarding what to use on splines to stop the wheel seiz=
ing on, I have never understood why the recommendation is always for grease=
.=C2=A0 Grease is designed to lubricate parts, whereas=C2=A0 the intent of =
applying it to the splines is to prevent them seizing on, not reduce fricti=
on (i.e., lubricate).=C2=A0 For that reason I have always used an anti-seiz=
ing product, my favourite being Permatex Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant (they =
call it a lubricant, but woe betide anyone who actually uses it to lubricat=
e). It should be used very sparingly, and I have never had an issue with a =
wheel sizing on the splines.=C2=A0 A very fine smear of grease on the outsi=
de of the taper on the knock-off I agree is a good thing as the intent ther=
e IS to lubricate.=C2=A0 Also, providing it is used sparingly, I have never=
 had it seep out of the hub and onto the spokes, avoiding the (in my opinio=
n) terrible practice of smearing sillycone (mis-spell intended) over the sp=
oke heads inside the hub.=C2=A0 Not to say grease does not work, it will, b=
ut why not use a product designed for the purpose, and achieve clean spokes=
 at the same time?
=C2=A0
Cheers, Mirek
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs
=C2=A0
Replacement parts-not NOS-what if the knockoff=C2=A0 bottoms out on the spl=
ine face before it tightens to the cone of the wire wheel?=C2=A0 A combinat=
ion of measured errors on replacement parts could create this condition-fro=
nt to back. The knockoffs were made to tighten, but not be whaled upon.=C2=
=A0 If properly applied each side they are self tightening and I normally s=
pin them on hand tight, hit them with the rawhide snug while still up in th=
e air, and then wack them one more time on the ground with the copper side =
of Thor.
=C2=A0
One time in the early '70s I witnessed a BMC "mechanic" whaling on a knocko=
ff of the Healey, still hanging on the lube rack, with a ten pound long han=
dle sledge hammer!=C2=A0 Flat ears? you betcha.
=C2=A0
I would make sure that when mounted, the front edge of the wheel is just fo=
rward of the inner depth of the knockoff so that it actually contacts metal=
 as it snugs it to the rear ring on the hub.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Also-grease-not to much- but be sure splines, and ring of hub, and knockoff=
 threads have a light smear. I use HD wheel bearing grease=C2=A0 so it does=
n't seep out the spoke nibs like moly or light grease would. Hank
-----------------------------------------
From: "Perry via Healeys"=20
Subject: Re: [Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant - Part III Knock offs
Michael et al,
Contemplate the mechanical connections between the hub extension, wire whee=
l hub and the knockoff.=20
The hub extension is bolted to the axle using tapered nuts that seat in the=
 face of the extension. No rotational movement.
The wire wheel is connected to the hub extension via the splines. The toler=
ances in the splines may allow for some rotational movement but they have t=
o be loose enough to get the wheel off the extension.=20
What else holds the wheel in place=E2=80=A6the knockoff. The cone in the kn=
ock off forces the wire wheel hub against the hub extension, The contact in=
terface is the tapers on the hub extension and the wire wheel hub. You know=
 the little area that we are frequently reminded to apply a smear of grease=
 to stop the little squeaky noise at low speed. If the knock off is tight e=
nough there is not movement here either.
So Mike, if you see movement between the knock off and the wire wheel, the =
knock off is not tight enough.=C2=A0=20
Suspect that the folks that developed knock offs understood the problem of =
owners/mechanics not getting them tight enough and used the handed (left an=
d right) threads that self tighten.=20
Gentlemen, remember your Mother today!
Perry
=C2=A0
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
=C2=A0

Subject: [Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant - Part III
=C2=A0
At my age (approaching this side of 70) I am on lock down at my house.=C2=
=A0 I even have my groceries delivered.=C2=A0 I will only go out to eat at =
a drive through with an N95 mask on.=C2=A0 My Boston Terrier that goes with=
 me does not wear one.=C2=A0 He refuses, but he is only three years old.=C2=
=A0 So, being sequestered to my domicile I have taken up the restoration of=
 my BN2 with a vengeance.=C2=A0 I did not know I knew so many off color phr=
ases.=C2=A0 Everything to be done on this car is difficult due to parts inc=
ompatibility, parts fit, parts unavailability or just=C2=A0 my general igno=
rance and/or incompetence.=C2=A0 This evening I finished mounting the right=
 side front hub with all new parts.=C2=A0 I thought I had done a nice job.=
=C2=A0 No lateral play in the hub.=C2=A0 Turns easily without binding.=C2=
=A0 The correct amount of shims after much trial and error.=C2=A0 Disc brak=
e conversion was mounted and braided stainless steel flex brake lines hooke=
d up at both ends.=C2=A0 I have yet to run the brake lines.=C2=A0 Maybe nex=
t.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This rant is about the brand new Dayton wire wheels.=C2=A0 I=
 mounted the wire wheels which have temporary used tires on them so I can m=
ove the car when it is down off the dollies.=C2=A0 After mounting the wheel=
 I gave the two eared knockoff several pretty good whacks.=C2=A0 Now the mo=
ment of truth.=C2=A0 I grabbed the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock position and pu=
lled straight back and forth.=C2=A0 Yay! No play, but when I rocked the whe=
el it moved slightly.=C2=A0 I thought it was the hub, but looking closely y=
ou can see the wire wheel hub rocking back and forth in the knockoff!=C2=A0=
 What!?!=C2=A0 How hard are you supposed to hit those knockoffs?
Mike MacLean
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e

Healeys@autox.team.net
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys

rw@gmail.com


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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3D"#954F72"><div cla=
ss=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>My understanding is that anti seize =
was developed for higher temperature threaded connections along with a few =
other things long ago.. </p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If you look at recommendat=
ions from manufacturers of splined connections, like the slip joint in driv=
eshafts, they say to use grease. </p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwli=
nk/?LinkId=3D550986">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border=
-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal st=
yle=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:sentenac.rw@=
gmail.com">Roland Wilhelmy</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, May 10, 2020 9:54 PM=
<br><b>To: </b><a href=3D"mailto:healeyguy@aol.com";>Perry</a><br><b>Cc: </b=
><a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net</a><br><b=
>Subject: </b>Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs</p></div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Maybe anti seize hadn't b=
een invented when the manual was written.&nbsp; Anti seize surely does get =
onto every surface once you apply it in one place.&nbsp;</p><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>-Roland</p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p><=
/p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Sun, May 10, 2020, 6:48 PM Perry via H=
ealeys &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net=
</a>&gt; wrote:</p></div><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid=
 #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in=
'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto'>Yes this could turn into an all familiar thread on oils =
however lets just go back to what every factory service/workshop manual all=
 say about the maintenance or service of the wire wheel splines, =E2=80=9CA=
 little grease should be smeared upon the splines and cone faces of the hub=
 and wheel before refitting.=E2=80=9D</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-=
margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Perry</p><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;</p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:=
auto'>Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986=
" target=3D"_blank">Mail</a> for Windows 10</p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;</p><div styl=
e=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'=
><b>From: </b><a href=3D"mailto:m.g.sharp@sympatico.ca"; target=3D"_blank">M=
irek Sharp</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:36 PM<br><b>To: </b><=
a href=3D"mailto:healeyguy@aol.com"; target=3D"_blank">'Perry'</a></p></div>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt=
:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Perhaps a little tangential to the main thread, a=
nd fully aware of the likelihood of me being accused of being pedantic (whi=
ch never happens on this list </span><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-famil=
y:Wingdings'>J</span><span lang=3DEN-CA>), but regarding what to use on spl=
ines to stop the wheel seizing on, I have never understood why the recommen=
dation is always for grease.&nbsp; Grease is designed to lubricate parts, w=
hereas&nbsp; the intent of applying it to the splines is to prevent them se=
izing on, not reduce friction (i.e., lubricate).&nbsp; For that reason I ha=
ve always used an anti-seizing product, my favourite being Permatex Copper =
Anti-Seize Lubricant (they call it a lubricant, but woe betide anyone who a=
ctually uses it to lubricate). It should be used very sparingly, and I have=
 never had an issue with a wheel sizing on the splines.&nbsp; A very fine s=
mear of grease on the outside of the taper on the knock-off I agree is a go=
od thing as the intent there IS to lubricate.&nbsp; Also, providing it is u=
sed sparingly, I have never had it seep out of the hub and onto the spokes,=
 avoiding the (in my opinion) terrible practice of smearing sillycone (mis-=
spell intended) over the spoke heads inside the hub.&nbsp; Not to say greas=
e does not work, it will, but why not use a product designed for the purpos=
e, and achieve clean spokes at the same time?</span></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=
=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Cheers, Mirek</span></p=
><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0p=
t 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-ma=
rgin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahom=
a",sans-serif'>Subject:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-fami=
ly:"Tahoma",sans-serif'> Re: [Healeys] Part III Knock offs</span></p></div>=
</div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=
=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>=
Replacement parts-not NOS-what if the knockoff&nbsp; bottoms out on the spl=
ine face before it tightens to the cone of the wire wheel?&nbsp; A combinat=
ion of measured errors on replacement parts could create this condition-fro=
nt to back. The knockoffs were made to tighten, but not be whaled upon.&nbs=
p; If properly applied each side they are self tightening and I normally sp=
in them on hand tight, hit them with the rawhide snug while still up in the=
 air, and then wack them one more time on the ground with the copper side o=
f Thor.</span></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:aut=
o;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>One time in the early '70s I witnessed a BMC &q=
uot;mechanic&quot; whaling on a knockoff of the Healey, still hanging on th=
e lube rack, with a ten pound long handle sledge hammer!&nbsp; Flat ears? y=
ou betcha.</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-to=
p-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>I would make sure that when mounted, t=
he front edge of the wheel is just forward of the inner depth of the knocko=
ff so that it actually contacts metal as it snugs it to the rear ring on th=
e hub.&nbsp;</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-=
top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-b=
ottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Also-grease-not to much- but be sure splin=
es, and ring of hub, and knockoff threads have a light smear. I use HD whee=
l bearing grease&nbsp; so it doesn't seep out the spoke nibs like moly or l=
ight grease would. Hank</span></p><p><span lang=3DEN-CA>-------------------=
----------------------</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-t=
op-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=3DEN-CA>From: &quot;Perry via =
Healeys&quot; <br>Subject: Re: [Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant - Part III=
 Knock offs</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto=
;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Michael et al,</span></p><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:a=
uto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Contemplate the mechanical connections between the =
hub extension, wire wheel hub and the knockoff. </span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lan=
g=3DEN-CA>The hub extension is bolted to the axle using tapered nuts that s=
eat in the face of the extension. No rotational movement.</span></p><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>=
<span lang=3DEN-CA>The wire wheel is connected to the hub extension via the=
 splines. The tolerances in the splines may allow for some rotational movem=
ent but they have to be loose enough to get the wheel off the extension. </=
span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-b=
ottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>What else holds the wheel in place=E2=80=
=A6the knockoff. The cone in the knock off forces the wire wheel hub agains=
t the hub extension, The contact interface is the tapers on the hub extensi=
on and the wire wheel hub. You know the little area that we are frequently =
reminded to apply a smear of grease to stop the little squeaky noise at low=
 speed. If the knock off is tight enough there is not movement here either.=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>So Mike, if you see movement between t=
he knock off and the wire wheel, the knock off is not tight enough.&nbsp; <=
/span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-=
bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Suspect that the folks that developed k=
nock offs understood the problem of owners/mechanics not getting them tight=
 enough and used the handed (left and right) threads that self tighten. </s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Gentlemen, remember your Mother today!</s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Perry</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal styl=
e=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA=
>&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso=
-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>Sent from <a href=3D"https://go=
.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986" target=3D"_blank">Mail</a> for Wind=
ows 10</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-=
margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p><div style=3D'b=
order:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p cla=
ss=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'=
><span lang=3DEN-CA><br><b>Subject: </b>[Healeys] The Saturday Night Rant -=
 Part III</span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p><div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom=
-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman",serif'>At my age (approaching this side of 70) I am on lock down=
 at my house.&nbsp; I even have my groceries delivered.&nbsp; I will only g=
o out to eat at a drive through with an N95 mask on.&nbsp; My Boston Terrie=
r that goes with me does not wear one.&nbsp; He refuses, but he is only thr=
ee years old.&nbsp; So, being sequestered to my domicile I have taken up th=
e restoration of my BN2 with a vengeance.&nbsp; I did not know I knew so ma=
ny off color phrases.&nbsp; Everything to be done on this car is difficult =
due to parts incompatibility, parts fit, parts unavailability or just&nbsp;=
 my general ignorance and/or incompetence.&nbsp; This evening I finished mo=
unting the right side front hub with all new parts.&nbsp; I thought I had d=
one a nice job.&nbsp; No lateral play in the hub.&nbsp; Turns easily withou=
t binding.&nbsp; The correct amount of shims after much trial and error.&nb=
sp; Disc brake conversion was mounted and braided stainless steel flex brak=
e lines hooked up at both ends.&nbsp; I have yet to run the brake lines.&nb=
sp; Maybe next.&nbsp;&nbsp; This rant is about the brand new Dayton wire wh=
eels.&nbsp; I mounted the wire wheels which have temporary used tires on th=
em so I can move the car when it is down off the dollies.&nbsp; After mount=
ing the wheel I gave the two eared knockoff several pretty good whacks.&nbs=
p; Now the moment of truth.&nbsp; I grabbed the wheel at 9 and 3 o'clock po=
sition and pulled straight back and forth.&nbsp; Yay! No play, but when I r=
ocked the wheel it moved slightly.&nbsp; I thought it was the hub, but look=
ing closely you can see the wire wheel hub rocking back and forth in the kn=
ockoff!&nbsp; What!?!&nbsp; How hard are you supposed to hit those knockoff=
s?</span></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span lang=3DEN-CA style=3D'font-size:12.0p=
t;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Mike MacLean</span></p></div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>=
<span lang=3DEN-CA>&nbsp;</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margi=
n-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>&nbsp;</p></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:=
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