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Re: Nitropropane

To: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
Subject: Re: Nitropropane
From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 22:50:56 -0400
Thanks Dan,

I am glad to hear that the rules are not as restrictive as I thought, but
just to make sure I understand let me paraphrase my understanding of the
intent of the rules.  Please correct me if I still have it wrong.

The FUEL class is differentiated from GAS by allowing oxygenated fuels
and/or the use of oxidizers other than the atmospheric air.  Examples of
oxygenated fuels would be nitromethane, nitropropane, methanol, ethanol,
propyleneoxide, etc.
Examples of non-atmospheric oxidizers would be nitrous, O2 (compressed
oxygen), hydrogen peroxide, etc.

The GAS class is for non-oxygenated gas, or other non-oxygenated fuels such
as LPG, CNG, diesel, etc.  Any oxidizers other than atmospheric air are
prohibited.

Where would compressed air go ? Would an engine using compressed atmospheric
air be considered blown ?

Where would non-oxygenated but potent fuels like hydrazine go ?

Thanks for your patience with a LSR novice.

Greg

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:16 AM
Subject: Re: Nitropropane


> Greg,
>
> Your last parargraph is the correct statement. You seem to be reading too
> much into a very simple deal. The reason that CNG & LPG are allowed to run
> in gas classes is that we probabally get one entry every 5 - 10 years
using
> these fuels. There are other safety considerations to be taken if using
> these fuels also. There doesn't seem to be any rational for creating a
> couple hundred classes for alternate fuel vehicles when there is no
> interest. If in fact the alternate fuels are the latest answer, where are
> the entries?
>
> Dan(fuel for thought) Warner
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> To: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
<land-speed@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 4:40 AM
> Subject: Re: Nitropropane
>
>
> > John,
> >
> > It's in II-2, "Approved fuels are: Nitrous Oxide, nitromethane, alcohol
> and
> > non-approved gasoline."
> > But to make things really confusing in the next paragraph you find,
> "Engines
> > using CNG, LPG or diesel may compete in gasoline classes", even though
> LPG,
> > CNG, and Diesel were not on the list of approved fuels.
> > This would seem to indicate that a car running on LPG and nitrous would
> not
> > be legal in any class, fuel or gas, as the nitrous excludes it from gas,
> and
> > LPG is not on the approved list for fuel ???
> > Worse yet, by the letter of the law it seems illegal to run approved
> > gasoline in combination with nitrous in the fuel classes, again approved
> > gasoline is not on the list of legal fuels for fuel classes.  Obviously
> that
> > was not the intent of the rules as it is done all the time, but it seems
> to
> > be what the book says.
> > On the other hand there do not seem to be any limitations on additives
(in
> > fuel classes), so perhaps gasoline with nitropropane added is just
> > considered non-approved gasoline ???  Is anything still just an additive
> if
> > you are using large percentages of it, like 49% ???
> > Do you think it was the intent of the rules to allow any fuel in the
fuel
> > classes, and the list in II-2 is just incomplete ?
> >
> > Even more confused than usual, Greg
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> >
> >
> > > Could be wrong here but I don't think there is a list of legal fuels
for
> > > fuel class. Just legal gasoline for the gas class.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:11 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > >
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > Nitropropane is manufactured by:
> > > > Angus Chemical Company
> > > > 1500 E. Lake Cook Road
> > > > Buffalo Grove Road, IL 60089
> > > > Phone: 708-215-8600
> > > > But they do not sell is small retail quantities.  However Angus is
> also
> > > the
> > > > major producer of nitromethane, so most of the folks selling nitro
buy
> > it
> > > > from Angus and could also get the nitropropane for you.
> > > > It's ability to be mixed with gas would seem to make it desirable
for
> > > anyone
> > > > wanting to run in both gas and fuel classes with minimum
modifications
> > (if
> > > > it was on the list of legal fuels).
> > > >
> > > > Greg
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:57 PM
> > > > Subject: Fuel
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >     Greg
> > > > >
> > > > >     Have read some material on nitropropane. I understand that it
> > mixes
> > > > well
> > > > > with gasoline. Have only heard of it being used in the 15% to 20%
> > range,
> > > > but
> > > > > don't know why you couldn't uses it at 50%. There may be some big
> > > > > differences between nitro and gas vs. nitro and alcohol that has
> lead
> > > all
> > > > > the racers to run nitromethane today.
> > > > >     In small percentages may actually be easier to run your
vehicle
> > with
> > > > > gasoline rather than alcohol. So where can one find nitropropane?
> > > > >
> > > > >     John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>;
> > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 9:40 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > John,
> > > > > > Back in the 50s some of the producers of nitro proposed using it
> in
> > > fuel
> > > > > for
> > > > > > on-highway vehicles, and did a lot of research into controlling
> > knock
> > > to
> > > > > > make it streatable.  They used lab type "detonation detectors",
> high
> > > > > > frequency accelerometers  with data acquisition systems, to
> observe
> > > the
> > > > > > knock.  The conclusions were that nitromethane should always be
> used
> > > in
> > > > > > blends with nitropropane (usually around 50/50). The
nitropropane
> > > helped
> > > > > > enormously in controlling the knock, for reasons that were not
> quite
> > > > > > understood.
> > > > > > While I bring this up primarily to point out that properly
> > calibrated
> > > > > > detonation detectors can certainly be useful with nitrous, (I
> > suspect
> > > > the
> > > > > > commercially available units are just calibrated for more
> > conventional
> > > > > > applications, or are sized incorrectly and are "clipping" on the
> > high
> > > > > > amplitude content of the spectrum), it prompts a few questions
and
> > > > > > observations of my own:
> > > > > > Why is nitropropane not included in the list of legal fuels ? By
> all
> > > > > > accounts I can find it is much more stable.  While it has a
lower
> > > oxygen
> > > > > > content than nitromethane and makes less power when run
undiluted,
> > > > anyone
> > > > > > running a mix could just use more of it.
> > > > > > Does anyone run undiluted or lightly diluted nitro on the salt ?
> > Most
> > > > of
> > > > > > the folks I have spoken to run weak mixes, under 25% nitro, but
I
> do
> > > not
> > > > > > know how typical this is.
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > To: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:21 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From what little I know about these things they work great on
> > > street
> > > > > > > cars...are marginal on race cars...and I would guess about
> useless
> > > > with
> > > > > > > nitro.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>
> > > > > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:55 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Group,
> > > > > > > >     Has any body out there used the MSD detonation sensor on
> > nitro
> > > > > that
> > > > > > > has a
> > > > > > > > readout in the cockpit for the driver to see. Chuck Salmen
has
> > one
> > > > on
> > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > $um-Fun gas roadster and he likes it. What I don't know is
how
> > > they
> > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > react to nitro which is on the verge of detonating at all
> times.
> > > > > > > >     Anybody had any
> > experience?...............................Doug
> > > > > King
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>


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