Hello Dan and list.
Someone once told me that everyone knew that "fuel" meant nitro and/or
alcohol so it wasn't specified by name. In fact my 1977 book says
"any nonprepressuerized liquid fuel may be used".
Then along came hydrazine. The rule book was changed because of it and
some
other "interesting" stuff from the aerospace program.
I worked on the Atlas program in the early '60s and I would keep my
distance
(about 100 yards per quart) from the stuff.
Check: http://www.olinultrapure.com/hydrazine/Propellants/Care.asp
See you in August,
Bryan Savage
Dan Warner wrote:
>
> Greg,
>
> Anything other than provided gasoline will be considered a fuel. Your list
> of oxygen adding fuels is real close. Hydrazine would more than likely be in
> fuel class. Again, placing CNG, LPG, diesel, etc. into gas classes is due to
> a lack of entries.
>
> Engines using only compressed air as fuel I am no familiar with so, I cannot
> comment on that.
>
> Dan Warner
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> To: Dan Warner <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 7:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Nitropropane
>
> > Thanks Dan,
> >
> > I am glad to hear that the rules are not as restrictive as I thought, but
> > just to make sure I understand let me paraphrase my understanding of the
> > intent of the rules. Please correct me if I still have it wrong.
> >
> > The FUEL class is differentiated from GAS by allowing oxygenated fuels
> > and/or the use of oxidizers other than the atmospheric air. Examples of
> > oxygenated fuels would be nitromethane, nitropropane, methanol, ethanol,
> > propyleneoxide, etc.
> > Examples of non-atmospheric oxidizers would be nitrous, O2 (compressed
> > oxygen), hydrogen peroxide, etc.
> >
> > The GAS class is for non-oxygenated gas, or other non-oxygenated fuels
> such
> > as LPG, CNG, diesel, etc. Any oxidizers other than atmospheric air are
> > prohibited.
> >
> > Where would compressed air go ? Would an engine using compressed
> atmospheric
> > air be considered blown ?
> >
> > Where would non-oxygenated but potent fuels like hydrazine go ?
> >
> > Thanks for your patience with a LSR novice.
> >
> > Greg
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan Warner" <dwarner@electrorent.com>
> > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 9:16 AM
> > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> >
> >
> > > Greg,
> > >
> > > Your last parargraph is the correct statement. You seem to be reading
> too
> > > much into a very simple deal. The reason that CNG & LPG are allowed to
> run
> > > in gas classes is that we probabally get one entry every 5 - 10 years
> > using
> > > these fuels. There are other safety considerations to be taken if using
> > > these fuels also. There doesn't seem to be any rational for creating a
> > > couple hundred classes for alternate fuel vehicles when there is no
> > > interest. If in fact the alternate fuels are the latest answer, where
> are
> > > the entries?
> > >
> > > Dan(fuel for thought) Warner
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Hyatt Engineering Ltd. <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > To: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 4:40 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > >
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > >
> > > > It's in II-2, "Approved fuels are: Nitrous Oxide, nitromethane,
> alcohol
> > > and
> > > > non-approved gasoline."
> > > > But to make things really confusing in the next paragraph you find,
> > > "Engines
> > > > using CNG, LPG or diesel may compete in gasoline classes", even though
> > > LPG,
> > > > CNG, and Diesel were not on the list of approved fuels.
> > > > This would seem to indicate that a car running on LPG and nitrous
> would
> > > not
> > > > be legal in any class, fuel or gas, as the nitrous excludes it from
> gas,
> > > and
> > > > LPG is not on the approved list for fuel ???
> > > > Worse yet, by the letter of the law it seems illegal to run approved
> > > > gasoline in combination with nitrous in the fuel classes, again
> approved
> > > > gasoline is not on the list of legal fuels for fuel classes.
> Obviously
> > > that
> > > > was not the intent of the rules as it is done all the time, but it
> seems
> > > to
> > > > be what the book says.
> > > > On the other hand there do not seem to be any limitations on additives
> > (in
> > > > fuel classes), so perhaps gasoline with nitropropane added is just
> > > > considered non-approved gasoline ??? Is anything still just an
> additive
> > > if
> > > > you are using large percentages of it, like 49% ???
> > > > Do you think it was the intent of the rules to allow any fuel in the
> > fuel
> > > > classes, and the list in II-2 is just incomplete ?
> > > >
> > > > Even more confused than usual, Greg
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 8:33 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Could be wrong here but I don't think there is a list of legal fuels
> > for
> > > > > fuel class. Just legal gasoline for the gas class.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 6:11 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Nitropropane
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > John,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Nitropropane is manufactured by:
> > > > > > Angus Chemical Company
> > > > > > 1500 E. Lake Cook Road
> > > > > > Buffalo Grove Road, IL 60089
> > > > > > Phone: 708-215-8600
> > > > > > But they do not sell is small retail quantities. However Angus is
> > > also
> > > > > the
> > > > > > major producer of nitromethane, so most of the folks selling nitro
> > buy
> > > > it
> > > > > > from Angus and could also get the nitropropane for you.
> > > > > > It's ability to be mixed with gas would seem to make it desirable
> > for
> > > > > anyone
> > > > > > wanting to run in both gas and fuel classes with minimum
> > modifications
> > > > (if
> > > > > > it was on the list of legal fuels).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > To: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>;
> > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 1:57 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Fuel
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Have read some material on nitropropane. I understand that
> it
> > > > mixes
> > > > > > well
> > > > > > > with gasoline. Have only heard of it being used in the 15% to
> 20%
> > > > range,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > > don't know why you couldn't uses it at 50%. There may be some
> big
> > > > > > > differences between nitro and gas vs. nitro and alcohol that has
> > > lead
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > the racers to run nitromethane today.
> > > > > > > In small percentages may actually be easier to run your
> > vehicle
> > > > with
> > > > > > > gasoline rather than alcohol. So where can one find
> nitropropane?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "Hyatt Engineering Ltd." <Hyatt-Engineering-Ltd@fuse.net>
> > > > > > > To: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
> > > > <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>;
> > > > > > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2000 9:40 AM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > John,
> > > > > > > > Back in the 50s some of the producers of nitro proposed using
> it
> > > in
> > > > > fuel
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > on-highway vehicles, and did a lot of research into
> controlling
> > > > knock
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > > make it streatable. They used lab type "detonation
> detectors",
> > > high
> > > > > > > > frequency accelerometers with data acquisition systems, to
> > > observe
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > knock. The conclusions were that nitromethane should always
> be
> > > used
> > > > > in
> > > > > > > > blends with nitropropane (usually around 50/50). The
> > nitropropane
> > > > > helped
> > > > > > > > enormously in controlling the knock, for reasons that were not
> > > quite
> > > > > > > > understood.
> > > > > > > > While I bring this up primarily to point out that properly
> > > > calibrated
> > > > > > > > detonation detectors can certainly be useful with nitrous, (I
> > > > suspect
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > commercially available units are just calibrated for more
> > > > conventional
> > > > > > > > applications, or are sized incorrectly and are "clipping" on
> the
> > > > high
> > > > > > > > amplitude content of the spectrum), it prompts a few questions
> > and
> > > > > > > > observations of my own:
> > > > > > > > Why is nitropropane not included in the list of legal fuels ?
> By
> > > all
> > > > > > > > accounts I can find it is much more stable. While it has a
> > lower
> > > > > oxygen
> > > > > > > > content than nitromethane and makes less power when run
> > undiluted,
> > > > > > anyone
> > > > > > > > running a mix could just use more of it.
> > > > > > > > Does anyone run undiluted or lightly diluted nitro on the salt
> ?
> > > > Most
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > the folks I have spoken to run weak mixes, under 25% nitro,
> but
> > I
> > > do
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > > know how typical this is.
> > > > > > > > Greg
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > From: "John Beckett" <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > > > > > > > To: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 8:21 PM
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Doug
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >From what little I know about these things they work great
> on
> > > > > street
> > > > > > > > > cars...are marginal on race cars...and I would guess about
> > > useless
> > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > nitro.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > > > From: <ARDUNDOUG@aol.com>
> > > > > > > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, June 01, 2000 3:55 PM
> > > > > > > > > Subject: MSD Detonation Detector and Cockpit Display Meter
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Group,
> > > > > > > > > > Has any body out there used the MSD detonation sensor
> on
> > > > nitro
> > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > has a
> > > > > > > > > > readout in the cockpit for the driver to see. Chuck Salmen
> > has
> > > > one
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > his
> > > > > > > > > > $um-Fun gas roadster and he likes it. What I don't know is
> > how
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > react to nitro which is on the verge of detonating at all
> > > times.
> > > > > > > > > > Anybody had any
> > > > experience?...............................Doug
> > > > > > > King
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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