Karl Witt <kwitt@shore.net>
>On or about 11:14 AM 6/15/1999 , Eric Linnhoff did say:
>>=======================
>> But it was a very useful mod for the DSM folks. If I remember this
>> correctly, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if not, the first gen. turbos
>> flowed more air in the upper revs but had a little more lag before boost
>> built up. The 2nd gen. DSM turbos were smaller and had less boost lag
>> but also didn't flow as much air in the higher revs so they just
>> basically pooped out earlier than the motor.
That's the gist of it. 15lbs of boost @3000RPM, 10 lbs of boost @ 6000RPM. The
T25 is a cork.
> Let's not forget the 10lbs of boost creep they get from it when combined
> with all the exhaust mods...from 14# to 24...not too shabby in my book, and
> all but unmentioned when this was all discussed and we were "edumuhcated"
> by DG here....wonder why that was?
Because it doesn't happen. 1st gear is so short that boost creep never happens,
I get 14-15lbs max at the top of 1st gear (and 15lbs is the "stock" boost level)
In 2cd, there's a little creep at the top of the gear, I may see as high as 19,
but 17 is more like it. Note that it doesn't start happening until about 6000
and then I'm moving at over 50MPH. Top of second is 68MPH - how often do you see
these kinds of speeds?
Now in higher gears (where it takes longer to accelerate), then yeah, it creeps.
I've seen 21lbs at the top of 3rd and 4th. But I've _never_ used 3rd on an
autocross, and I'll certainly never see the top of third.
24 pounds? On a 14b? No way, no how. Not possible without boost controllers, and
probably not possible EVER.
But hey, let's pretend I'm lying to you. Assuming 14.7lbs atmospheric pressure,
24 lbs is 1.6 times bigger. So my mighty 2litre engine is now effectively
displacing 5.26litres - .44 litres LESS than the GM F-body types.
> I don't see where the turbo guys 'got screwed' I see that they'll be put
> back under the same restrictions as the N/A guys go...the turbo is an
> integral part of the motor, no different than say swapping LT4 heads onto
> an LT1 motor
Come on, the turbo is part of the intake and exhaust systems, not the motor.
It's even held onto the car downstream of the exhaust manifold. It's as much
part of the motor as the catalytic converter is.
> ...more-so, they both achieve the same thing...more air in the
> combustion chamber.
You mean the same way that an upgraded air filter does? Or an intake manifold?
Or an aftermarket carb or FI system does?
No, we got screwed alright. Now that me and folks like me have already backdated
our turbos, already spent the money and the time to get them on and tune the car
around it, we now have to go spend the money to go convert the rest of the motor
to stay legal. Boy, it'd sure suck to have aftermarket FI systems banned now
that all the NA guys have them, wouldn't it?
I did a legal thing, I even checked with Denver _before I did it_ to MAKE SURE
it was a legal thing, spent the money, and now I have to spend even more money
to stay legal. Yeah, that's really fair.
And you know the funny thing? Backdating the entire engine may make MORE POWER.
The only differences between a post-95 and a pre-95 long block are that the
post-95 has different pistons with a couple of points higher compression, and
the pre-95 has MUCH bigger intake and exhaust ports. Some of that compression
can be made back by legally shaving the heads, and what you wind up with is a
motor with a much higher power potential than the current one. All the drag
racers use the earlier heads.
> If the turbo folks want it that badly, then i guess they have to pony up the
> cash just like the NA guys now....wah.
Yeah, I had to do way more work and spend way more money to still make the least
amount of power of any car in ESP - I don't think I'm making as much power as a
STOCK Camaro, never mind an ESP Camaro - and now I get to spend even more money
to stay legal. But hey, I'll make an extra 5-10 HP out of the deal! Happy me!
"Cost break" my ass. My backdated turbo makes maybe 10 more peak HP. Yeah, it
made a big difference to average HP, and it's probably safe to say that the gain
in average HP per $ is higher than any other mod available to NA cars (barring
strange intake restrictions or somesuch that artificially limit HP from the
factory, ohh, like say pinched intakes designed to keep Camaros form making more
HP than Corvettes with the same motor) So I went from "vastly underpowered" to
"sorta underpowered". Oooo, isn't that scary!
Time to write another letter. *sheesh* All I want to do is race!
DG
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