On or about 05:43 PM 6/15/99 -0400, dg50@chrysler.com did say:
>Karl Witt <kwitt@shore.net>
>
>>On or about 11:14 AM 6/15/1999 , Eric Linnhoff did say:
>>>=======================
>>> But it was a very useful mod for the DSM folks. If I remember this
>>> correctly, and I'm sure I'll be corrected if not, the first gen. turbos
>>> flowed more air in the upper revs but had a little more lag before boost
>>> built up. The 2nd gen. DSM turbos were smaller and had less boost lag
>>> but also didn't flow as much air in the higher revs so they just
>>> basically pooped out earlier than the motor.
>
>That's the gist of it. 15lbs of boost @3000RPM, 10 lbs of boost @ 6000RPM. The
>T25 is a cork.
>
>> Let's not forget the 10lbs of boost creep they get from it when combined
>> with all the exhaust mods...from 14# to 24...not too shabby in my book, and
>> all but unmentioned when this was all discussed and we were "edumuhcated"
>> by DG here....wonder why that was?
>
>Because it doesn't happen. 1st gear is so short that boost creep never
happens,
>I get 14-15lbs max at the top of 1st gear (and 15lbs is the "stock" boost
>level)
>
>In 2cd, there's a little creep at the top of the gear, I may see as high
as 19,
>but 17 is more like it. Note that it doesn't start happening until about 6000
>and then I'm moving at over 50MPH. Top of second is 68MPH - how often do you
>see
>these kinds of speeds?
>
>Now in higher gears (where it takes longer to accelerate), then yeah, it
>creeps.
>I've seen 21lbs at the top of 3rd and 4th. But I've _never_ used 3rd on an
>autocross, and I'll certainly never see the top of third.
>
>24 pounds? On a 14b? No way, no how. Not possible without boost controllers,
>and
>probably not possible EVER.
ok...per Fedja's post...23 psi...i was off by one pound...damn...how
outragious of me. I also admitted that i missed the part about it being at
the top of fourth, fine. But, the last time this came up, and this time
you've tried to make it sound like it's some extremely minor improvement at
autox speed. If that was really the case, and you weren't gaining THAT
much, i doubt you'd be making such a big stink about it.
>
>But hey, let's pretend I'm lying to you. Assuming 14.7lbs atmospheric
pressure,
>24 lbs is 1.6 times bigger. So my mighty 2litre engine is now effectively
>displacing 5.26litres - .44 litres LESS than the GM F-body types.
All valid points...IF my car was AWD/IRS..it's not, so tough patooties that
you push less volume than I do though the motor, you get what you do make
to the ground more efficiently.
>
>> I don't see where the turbo guys 'got screwed' I see that they'll be put
>> back under the same restrictions as the N/A guys go...the turbo is an
>> integral part of the motor, no different than say swapping LT4 heads onto
>> an LT1 motor
>
>Come on, the turbo is part of the intake and exhaust systems, not the motor.
>It's even held onto the car downstream of the exhaust manifold. It's as much
>part of the motor as the catalytic converter is.
Exhaust and intake are merely paths to the motor. Turbos are part of how
the motor was designed to make power. The gains I'll see from headers and
intake are minimal. You need a cam and heads to really make the most use
out of those mods. in an NA motor the cam and heads are the limiting factor
to how much air you can get in the combustion chamber, on a turbo car, the
Turbo can bypass these restrictions by force. an intake cannot, and even if
it could, so what, you can do that too.
>
>> ...more-so, they both achieve the same thing...more air in the
>> combustion chamber.
>
>You mean the same way that an upgraded air filter does? Or an intake manifold?
>Or an aftermarket carb or FI system does?
And gee, you can do all those things too...next.
>No, we got screwed alright. Now that me and folks like me have already
>backdated
>our turbos, already spent the money and the time to get them on and tune the
>car
>around it, we now have to go spend the money to go convert the rest of the
>motor
>to stay legal. Boy, it'd sure suck to have aftermarket FI systems banned now
>that all the NA guys have them, wouldn't it?
>I did a legal thing, I even checked with Denver _before I did it_ to MAKE SURE
>it was a legal thing, spent the money, and now I have to spend even more money
>to stay legal. Yeah, that's really fair.
>
>And you know the funny thing? Backdating the entire engine may make MORE
POWER.
>The only differences between a post-95 and a pre-95 long block are that the
>post-95 has different pistons with a couple of points higher compression, and
>the pre-95 has MUCH bigger intake and exhaust ports. Some of that compression
>can be made back by legally shaving the heads, and what you wind up with is a
>motor with a much higher power potential than the current one. All the drag
>racers use the earlier heads.
See my comment below. Now you already have the turbo, go get the 1G motor
and you'll be ahead of the game!
>> If the turbo folks want it that badly, then i guess they have to pony up the
>> cash just like the NA guys now....wah.
>
>Yeah, I had to do way more work and spend way more money to still make the
>least
>amount of power of any car in ESP - I don't think I'm making as much power
as a
>STOCK Camaro, never mind an ESP Camaro - and now I get to spend even more
money
>to stay legal. But hey, I'll make an extra 5-10 HP out of the deal! Happy me!
again...power isn't the only factor here...quit trying to make it sound
like it is. take the whole car into consideration. AWD. IRS. if you DID
have the same HP as an f-body in that car, then there wouldn't be a doubt
that a DSM would be an overdog.
>"Cost break" my ass. My backdated turbo makes maybe 10 more peak HP. Yeah, it
>made a big difference to average HP, and it's probably safe to say that the
>gain
>in average HP per $ is higher than any other mod available to NA cars (barring
>strange intake restrictions or somesuch that artificially limit HP from the
>factory, ohh, like say pinched intakes designed to keep Camaros form making
>more
>HP than Corvettes with the same motor) So I went from "vastly underpowered" to
>"sorta underpowered". Oooo, isn't that scary!
And just one more time, for the record, HP isn't the only factor.
>Time to write another letter. *sheesh* All I want to do is race!
Then go race.
Karl
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