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RE: Fear and Loathing in AP

To: "'Pat Kelly'" <lollipop487@comcast.net>, "'Chris Cox'"
Subject: RE: Fear and Loathing in AP
From: "Rick Brown" <rbrown7@covad.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:28:54 -0700
Not much if the motor's aluminum. <g>
--- Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
[mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Pat Kelly
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:27 PM
To: Rick Brown; 'Chris Cox'; 'James Creasy'; 'Charles Cox'; 'Scot
Zediker'; 'ba-autox'
Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP


What would the weight penalty be? :)
--Pat K

----------
>From: "Rick Brown" <rbrown7@covad.net>
>To: "'Chris Cox'" <C_A_Cox@msn.com>, "'James Creasy'" <james@thevenom.net>,
"'Charles Cox'" <charles@coastalbay.com>, "'Scot Zediker'"
<roadsterboy@earthlink.net>, "'ba-autox'" <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
>Subject: RE: Fear and Loathing in AP
>Date: Wed, Jul 23, 2003, 9:19 PM
>

> How about "FFRAP" (frap) for Factory Five Racing A Prepared?
> Make mine a big block and don't stop at 7 liters.
> Rick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
> [mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Chris Cox
> Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:34 PM
> To: 'James Creasy'; 'Charles Cox'; 'Scot Zediker'; 'ba-autox'; Rick
> Brown
> Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP
>
>
> Watching the AP FFR Cobras this weekend I couldn't figure out why there
are
> not 10 of these
> thing running at Nationals.  They are cheap to build,(relatively) very
fast,
> and look very cool.
>
> It seems like a perfect Prepared car.  Kind of like the cookie cutter P
car.
> I bet FFR could
> implement a lot of the suspension mods the Bordens have made to there car
> and
> sell it as
> an "R" package car.  Or would it be a FFRR.
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Rick Brown
>   To: 'James Creasy' ; 'Charles Cox' ; 'Scot Zediker' ; 'ba-autox'
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:45 PM
>   Subject: RE: Fear and Loathing in AP
>
>
>   In AP, with 16x10/16x12 wheels, a FFR Cobra needs to weigh 2200/2255 if
>   under 5.1 liters and 2420/2475 if over 5.1. Replica Cobras run the tube
>   frame weight.
>
>   An original Cobra like Bruce Cambern's 427 (7 Liter) could run at 2200
>   pounds but I can't get Bruce to take a Saws-all to it to properly
lighten
> it
>   up.
>
>   --- Rick Brown
>
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
>   [mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of James Creasy
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:52 PM
>   To: Charles Cox; Scot Zediker; ba-autox
>   Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP
>
>
>   >FFR Cobra shows the stock (dry)weight at 2,305# so I can only assume if
> you
>   >can get the Miata to 1750# you should easily be able to get the FFR
from
>   >2305 to 2000#, right?)
>
>   2305 is pretty heavy for an FFR with a small block, even with a full
tank
> of
>   gas. most of them weigh in between 2100 and 2200.  the later ones are a
>   little heavier but lots stiffer.  mine is going on a diet, i figure i
can
>   strip out about 125-150 lbs without compromising streetability or
>   maintenance.  thats with keeping the glass windshield.
>
>   the lightest one i know of is 1850 lbs, sporting a 600hp motor as i
recall
>   too.  giddyup!
>
>   james
>
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>
>   To: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>; "ba-autox"
>   <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
>   Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:27 PM
>   Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP
>
>
>   > Wheels for both classes are now the same (I believe). They originally
> set
>   > out to reduce the DP wheels to a maximum diameter of 13" from the
> previous
>   > 15" (I won't comment) but as I recall, they have reconsidered and both
>   > classes are now at 15X7...were always both at the same width and there
> is
>   a
>   > better selection in the 13" diameter tires.
>   >
>   > Induction isn't unlimited, carburetion or fuel injection is. That
limits
>   you
>   > to naturally aspirated engines which is the same as CSP. It has been
> shown
>   > in CSP that Individual throttle bodies don't show significant enough
> power
>   > to make that much difference compared running "stock" fuel injection,
so
>   the
>   > power difference between an AP and DP engine is insignificant.
>   >
>   > Regarding the weight of an AP Miata...I think your statement is
similar
> to
>   > what the SEB thought. What seems to have been missed is that all
Miatas
> in
>   > subsequent years gained weight and you have to consider all the cars,
> not
>   > just one or two light years of car bodies. This is not just due to
> luxury
>   > features but a lot of it is due to the strengthening of the car. In my
>   > opinion, there is no way to get the car to the indicated minimum
weight
>   > safely without sacrificing some structural integrity, particularly if
>   using
>   > any of the M2 chassis which should have been and you should take
>   > consideration of. Take a look at a DP Miata (when you can now find
one)
>   and
>   > try to find where you can take 425# off of it.
>   >
>   > I'm not sure what scales you used to weigh your car but I don't see
how
> it
>   > could be close to 1750# when most CSP competitors I know are around
>   > #1,900-1,950 pound range (some a bit less if taking out the soft
> top...no
>   > A/C, etc.) so I'm not sure how you could have gotten lighter than most
> of
>   > them but if in that range, try taking 150-200# out of your car, even
>   taking
>   > out the interior (or 350# as allowed by the rules for a 1.6)...you'll
be
>   > surprised how difficult (and expensive) it really is...I've done it, I
>   know.
>   >
>   > If yours is a '91 then the minimum weight in AP is 1600# or would you
> want
>   > to run the 1.6 at the 1.8 weight...think about it. The reason the cars
> are
>   > different weights is because the earlier 1.6 Miatas weigh less to
start
>   > with. They are not as structurally strong as the later cars and
>   consequently
>   > weigh less.
>   >
>   > Mine is 2300# and that is light for an M2. Yes you can gut and cut off
> the
>   > windshield but if you put a cage in the car, the weight from window
and
>   > frame is a trade off, maybe even more with the cage but required to
>   stiffen
>   > the car. It just can't be safely and cost-effectively done properly
>   without
>   > compromises based on my experience. Yes you can start with replacing
all
>   the
>   > body parts available in Carbon Fiber, build your own control arms out
of
>   > alloy...etc...yes you could probably get the car to the weight but at
> what
>   > cost? The rule book states: "Minimum weights shall be established
making
>   it
>   > possible for all cars to reach minimum weight with reasonable
>   modifications.
>   > The SEB recognizes that low minimum weights ultimately result in
higher
>   > costs to the competitor." With that in mind, it is my opinion that the
> SEB
>   > ignored this part of the rules when putting the Miata in AP as they
did
> or
>   > don't care what it costs. That being said, I have heard a rumor of one
>   > competitor that is getting close to the 1750# for the 1.8
> limit...although
>   I
>   > haven't verified it.
>   >
>   > Do you think placing 1750# (even if achievable) 190HP (maybe) Miatas
> with
>   > 7X15" wheels against 2000# (listed minimum weight for up to 5.1 L)
> Cobras
>   > with 500+ hp (and boo-coo torque) and 10X16" wheels seem equitable in
> the
>   > same class...I don't think so...the numbers don't compute to me.
>   >
>   > (My Miata lists the weight at 2,447# stock. It actually weighed more.
> The
>   > FFR Cobra shows the stock (dry)weight at 2,305# so I can only assume
if
>   you
>   > can get the Miata to 1750# you should easily be able to get the FFR
from
>   > 2305 to 2000#, right?)
>   >
>   > Maybe that is why you don't see any AP Miatas around....at least I
>   > haven't...
>   >
>   > Charles
>   >
>   >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>
>   > To: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>; "ba-autox"
>   > <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
>   > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:44 PM
>   > Subject: Fear and Loathing in AP
>   >
>   >
>   > > Miatas are now listed in both AP and DP.  For AP, you get larger
> wheels
>   > > (same as it used to run in DP, IIRC), unrestricted induction and a
>   miimum
>   > > weight impossible to achieve without compromising the car's
structural
>   > > integrity.
>   > >
>   > > For DP, you get tiny wheels, minimum weight barely below what the
car
>   > weighs
>   > > stock (my daily-driver '91 is already close to min for a 1.8L car,
> with
>   a
>   > > full interior!), and your choice of stock FI or carburetors.
>   > >
>   > >
>   > ----- Original Message -----
>   > From: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>
>   > To: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>; "ba-autox"
>   > <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
>   > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:44 PM
>   > Subject: Fear and Loathing in AP
>   >
>   >
>   > >
>   > > ----- Original Message -----
>   > > From: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>
>   > > To: "ba-autox" <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
>   > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:36 AM
>   > > Subject: Re: FFR in AP
>   > >
>   > >
>   > > > Maybe they could add a ca-jillion pounds, mandate smaller wheels
and
>   run
>   > > in
>   > > > DP. It works for the Miata which is an AP car, right?
>   > >
>   > > Miatas are now listed in both AP and DP.  For AP, you get larger
> wheels
>   > > (same as it used to run in DP, IIRC), unrestricted induction and a
>   miimum
>   > > weight impossible to achieve without compromising the car's
structural
>   > > integrity.
>   > >
>   > > For DP, you get tiny wheels, minimum weight barely below what the
car
>   > weighs
>   > > stock (my daily-driver '91 is already close to min for a 1.8L car,
> with
>   a
>   > > full interior!), and your choice of stock FI or carburetors.

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