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RE: Fear and Loathing in AP

To: "'Chris Cox'" <C_A_Cox@msn.com>, "'James Creasy'"
Subject: RE: Fear and Loathing in AP
From: "Rick Brown" <rbrown7@covad.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 21:19:15 -0700
How about "FFRAP" (frap) for Factory Five Racing A Prepared?
Make mine a big block and don't stop at 7 liters.
Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
[mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of Chris Cox
Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:34 PM
To: 'James Creasy'; 'Charles Cox'; 'Scot Zediker'; 'ba-autox'; Rick
Brown
Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP


Watching the AP FFR Cobras this weekend I couldn't figure out why there are
not 10 of these
thing running at Nationals.  They are cheap to build,(relatively) very fast,
and look very cool.

It seems like a perfect Prepared car.  Kind of like the cookie cutter P car.
I bet FFR could
implement a lot of the suspension mods the Bordens have made to there car
and
sell it as
an "R" package car.  Or would it be a FFRR.

Chris

----- Original Message -----
  From: Rick Brown
  To: 'James Creasy' ; 'Charles Cox' ; 'Scot Zediker' ; 'ba-autox'
  Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:45 PM
  Subject: RE: Fear and Loathing in AP


  In AP, with 16x10/16x12 wheels, a FFR Cobra needs to weigh 2200/2255 if
  under 5.1 liters and 2420/2475 if over 5.1. Replica Cobras run the tube
  frame weight.

  An original Cobra like Bruce Cambern's 427 (7 Liter) could run at 2200
  pounds but I can't get Bruce to take a Saws-all to it to properly lighten
it
  up.

  --- Rick Brown

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net
  [mailto:owner-ba-autox@autox.team.net]On Behalf Of James Creasy
  Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:52 PM
  To: Charles Cox; Scot Zediker; ba-autox
  Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP


  >FFR Cobra shows the stock (dry)weight at 2,305# so I can only assume if
you
  >can get the Miata to 1750# you should easily be able to get the FFR from
  >2305 to 2000#, right?)

  2305 is pretty heavy for an FFR with a small block, even with a full tank
of
  gas. most of them weigh in between 2100 and 2200.  the later ones are a
  little heavier but lots stiffer.  mine is going on a diet, i figure i can
  strip out about 125-150 lbs without compromising streetability or
  maintenance.  thats with keeping the glass windshield.

  the lightest one i know of is 1850 lbs, sporting a 600hp motor as i recall
  too.  giddyup!

  james


  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>
  To: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>; "ba-autox"
  <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
  Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 4:27 PM
  Subject: Re: Fear and Loathing in AP


  > Wheels for both classes are now the same (I believe). They originally
set
  > out to reduce the DP wheels to a maximum diameter of 13" from the
previous
  > 15" (I won't comment) but as I recall, they have reconsidered and both
  > classes are now at 15X7...were always both at the same width and there
is
  a
  > better selection in the 13" diameter tires.
  >
  > Induction isn't unlimited, carburetion or fuel injection is. That limits
  you
  > to naturally aspirated engines which is the same as CSP. It has been
shown
  > in CSP that Individual throttle bodies don't show significant enough
power
  > to make that much difference compared running "stock" fuel injection, so
  the
  > power difference between an AP and DP engine is insignificant.
  >
  > Regarding the weight of an AP Miata...I think your statement is similar
to
  > what the SEB thought. What seems to have been missed is that all Miatas
in
  > subsequent years gained weight and you have to consider all the cars,
not
  > just one or two light years of car bodies. This is not just due to
luxury
  > features but a lot of it is due to the strengthening of the car. In my
  > opinion, there is no way to get the car to the indicated minimum weight
  > safely without sacrificing some structural integrity, particularly if
  using
  > any of the M2 chassis which should have been and you should take
  > consideration of. Take a look at a DP Miata (when you can now find one)
  and
  > try to find where you can take 425# off of it.
  >
  > I'm not sure what scales you used to weigh your car but I don't see how
it
  > could be close to 1750# when most CSP competitors I know are around
  > #1,900-1,950 pound range (some a bit less if taking out the soft
top...no
  > A/C, etc.) so I'm not sure how you could have gotten lighter than most
of
  > them but if in that range, try taking 150-200# out of your car, even
  taking
  > out the interior (or 350# as allowed by the rules for a 1.6)...you'll be
  > surprised how difficult (and expensive) it really is...I've done it, I
  know.
  >
  > If yours is a '91 then the minimum weight in AP is 1600# or would you
want
  > to run the 1.6 at the 1.8 weight...think about it. The reason the cars
are
  > different weights is because the earlier 1.6 Miatas weigh less to start
  > with. They are not as structurally strong as the later cars and
  consequently
  > weigh less.
  >
  > Mine is 2300# and that is light for an M2. Yes you can gut and cut off
the
  > windshield but if you put a cage in the car, the weight from window and
  > frame is a trade off, maybe even more with the cage but required to
  stiffen
  > the car. It just can't be safely and cost-effectively done properly
  without
  > compromises based on my experience. Yes you can start with replacing all
  the
  > body parts available in Carbon Fiber, build your own control arms out of
  > alloy...etc...yes you could probably get the car to the weight but at
what
  > cost? The rule book states: "Minimum weights shall be established making
  it
  > possible for all cars to reach minimum weight with reasonable
  modifications.
  > The SEB recognizes that low minimum weights ultimately result in higher
  > costs to the competitor." With that in mind, it is my opinion that the
SEB
  > ignored this part of the rules when putting the Miata in AP as they did
or
  > don't care what it costs. That being said, I have heard a rumor of one
  > competitor that is getting close to the 1750# for the 1.8
limit...although
  I
  > haven't verified it.
  >
  > Do you think placing 1750# (even if achievable) 190HP (maybe) Miatas
with
  > 7X15" wheels against 2000# (listed minimum weight for up to 5.1 L)
Cobras
  > with 500+ hp (and boo-coo torque) and 10X16" wheels seem equitable in
the
  > same class...I don't think so...the numbers don't compute to me.
  >
  > (My Miata lists the weight at 2,447# stock. It actually weighed more.
The
  > FFR Cobra shows the stock (dry)weight at 2,305# so I can only assume if
  you
  > can get the Miata to 1750# you should easily be able to get the FFR from
  > 2305 to 2000#, right?)
  >
  > Maybe that is why you don't see any AP Miatas around....at least I
  > haven't...
  >
  > Charles
  >
  >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>
  > To: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>; "ba-autox"
  > <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:44 PM
  > Subject: Fear and Loathing in AP
  >
  >
  > > Miatas are now listed in both AP and DP.  For AP, you get larger
wheels
  > > (same as it used to run in DP, IIRC), unrestricted induction and a
  miimum
  > > weight impossible to achieve without compromising the car's structural
  > > integrity.
  > >
  > > For DP, you get tiny wheels, minimum weight barely below what the car
  > weighs
  > > stock (my daily-driver '91 is already close to min for a 1.8L car,
with
  a
  > > full interior!), and your choice of stock FI or carburetors.
  > >
  > >
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Scot Zediker" <roadsterboy@earthlink.net>
  > To: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>; "ba-autox"
  > <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
  > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:44 PM
  > Subject: Fear and Loathing in AP
  >
  >
  > >
  > > ----- Original Message -----
  > > From: "Charles Cox" <charles@coastalbay.com>
  > > To: "ba-autox" <ba-autox@autox.team.net>
  > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:36 AM
  > > Subject: Re: FFR in AP
  > >
  > >
  > > > Maybe they could add a ca-jillion pounds, mandate smaller wheels and
  run
  > > in
  > > > DP. It works for the Miata which is an AP car, right?
  > >
  > > Miatas are now listed in both AP and DP.  For AP, you get larger
wheels
  > > (same as it used to run in DP, IIRC), unrestricted induction and a
  miimum
  > > weight impossible to achieve without compromising the car's structural
  > > integrity.
  > >
  > > For DP, you get tiny wheels, minimum weight barely below what the car
  > weighs
  > > stock (my daily-driver '91 is already close to min for a 1.8L car,
with
  a
  > > full interior!), and your choice of stock FI or carburetors.

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