On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Richard Ceraldi-ERC004 wrote:
> You have a great car by the way. So why don't you let us in on this judging
> scam. I myself have lost to a car that the judge was in my class (and his
> car won!). With out airing this out that kind of crap it will still happen.
With all due respect to all involved directly in this controversy, and to
all who have commented thus far, I ask that at this time we NOT air the
matter via this forum. I wish to assure all directly involved as well as
other VTR members interested that I am looking into this matter. I have
not yet heard from ALL parties involved.
Those of you who know me know that I'll do whatever I can to find out the
whole story and try to deal with this as fairly as possible for all
concerned. That's the only promise I can make.
> If there is a conflict of interest there should be a way of protesting. How
> about providing a list of the judges and their credentials before the
> concours. Like I mentioned earlier even though I won I thought our judges
> did not know anything about GT6's.
Both as VTR President and as one who has judged at VTR National events, I
believe I can address this somewhat. Judging, much like almost anything
else in VTR, is on a volunteer basis. Every effort is made to get as many
judges as possible to volunteer. Ideally, this works just fine, providing
"experts" in each class. Realistically, it doesn't always work out so
well. However, the system of judging, based on the 400 point system
adapted originally from the Milestone Car Society and use of that system
by one team judging an entire class or classes of cars, helps to balance
out a lot of the subjectivity.
The beauty of the system is that it is NOT entirely dependent upon an
intimate knowledge of the model or model range being judged. Having at
least one "expert" is desirable, but the scoring system is designed to
promote consistency across the board.
Yes, I appreciate that it doesn't always work perfectly, but it seems to
work fairly well for the most part. There are some perhaps unavoidable
problems in this system as it currently exists:
1. Scores for the same car judged at two different Nationals should not
necessarily be compared to each other. For example, one team's points off
total for stone chips or "messy undercarriage" might not agree with the
next year's team judgment of same.
2. Conditions, such as last year's "hurricane rain storms" in Albany,
may on occasion prohibit a team from being as thorough in every area as
they might prefer to be. I trust no one present last year felt badly when
judges did not crawl around on flooded blacktop attempting to make sure
that lever shock absorbers were indeed the correct color. (Forgive me, no
sarcasm is intended; I'm only trying to make a point.)
3. At this time, VTR does not have any set of authoritative judging
manuals for the various models of Triumph. Such manuals are under
consideration for the future, but it will be some time before all models
can be adequately covered in such manuals. I know that some other clubs
have manuals to cover various models; unfortunately, some of these
manuals, like so many other printed reference works on Triumphs, don't
necessarily address Triumphs built for the U.S. market. Those of us who
know and/or care about such details realize just how extensive those
differences can be particularly on cars built for the 1968 and later model
years.
4. The very fact that someone supposedly "qualified" as a judge for a
particular model might well have such a model entered in Concours and,
therefore, cannot judge that class, makes obtaining volunteer judges even
more difficult at any given event.
I and the rest of the VTR Board would welcome any realistic suggestions on
improving the system, again keeping in mind that we are a VOLUNTEER
organization of enthusiasts and fans of the marque. But again I would ask
that this debate not continue publicly at this time. It is not fair to ANY
of those involved directly (entrants, judges) or indirectly (members of
RRTC and VTR). If it must continue, let's at least take it to
<vtr@autox.team.net> and free up "triumphs" for others! :-) Otherwise,
feel free to comment to me directly (flame or otherwise).
Thanks for your understanding. Like "whats-his-name" in the Hair Club for
Men, I'm not only the President -- I'm a client (member in this case)! ;-)
>From both viewpoints, I'm interested in working this out for the benefit
of all concerned and for VTR itself.
--Andy
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Andrew Mace, President and *
* 10/Herald/Vitesse (Sports 6) Consultant *
* Vintage Triumph Register *
* amace@unix2.nysed.gov *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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