well, my thoughts were that the car is very narrow, 27 inches or so, with a
long tapered tail that was not just empty space....
At 01:55 PM 5/24/00 , you wrote:
>I am losing something here the big speed secret and obvious advantage of
>rear steer is ????????????????????????????????????
>Dahlgren
>
>john robinson wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> > well now lets see..............
> > ifn you take a long narrow streamliner with the front wheel drive
> > non steering, and put the driver behind the engine, and then behind him the
> > staggered rear steering wheels with only about 8 inches track, you would
> > use a mustang steering rack(#1) between the two rear wheels, and then take
> > two mustang steering racks and weld them together so the driver input would
> > go forwards, then backwards to the actual steering rack (#1),( which would
> > reverse the steering, the steered wheels would turn left as the driver
> > turned his wheel right, making the car GO right. )
> > The kicker is that there is a delay between what the driver feels,
> > and his input, which can produce a pilot induced oscillation as he tries to
> > catch up to the actual motion of the car. This motion is considered to be
> > at about 1 Hz (the driver makes a correction, the car SLOWLY begins to
> > respond, the driver inputs additional steering,because he "feels" that the
> > car is not responding correctly, then he finds the car to be correcting too
> > quickly and he reverses his inputs, always chasing the vehicle, and causing
> > finally an out of control situation. This can be seen when watching a
> > single engined taildragger pilot learning to taxi the airplane for the
> > first time.
> > However, I believe a disciplined driver CAN control a vehicle
> > designed with rear steer. I think that if the driver is in the middle of
> > the car, rather than the end, he would feel less steering input from the
> > motion of the car, thereby would not feel the need to input corrections,
> > and would not begin the PIO described above.
> > Wasn't the car Beckett drove a sports car of some sort? a short
> > wheel base, wide track, mid engine something? I think this would be very
> > difficult to try to rear steer, VERY little visual input available to the
> > driver for corrections, which is why I thought the driver positioned in the
> > middle of a streamliner would be advantageous, lots of car left in front of
> > him for visual reference, and less "feel" inputed to his butt than if he
> > were in the tail of the car.
> > The reference to Thrust' $2 million computer was to the body
> > positioning for aerodynamics, rather than controlling the actual steering,
> > this is information from the magazine articles I have seen.
> >
> > At 12:06 PM 5/24/00 , you wrote:
> > >Now there is a Kernal of knowledge from Left Field.... Hey John... tell us
> > >about this.... sounds interesting.. K
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: John Beckett <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>
> > >To: john robinson <john@engr.wisc.edu>; <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 12:08 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Fuel and Gas Class
> > >
> > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > I think what Dan was trying to say is the rear steer has been tried
> > > > before mostly unsuccessfully. I know cause I was one that tried it. The
> > >only
> > > > high speed success that I am aware off was the Thrust project, but they
> > >had
> > > > a $2,000,000. computer making the necessary corrections for the
> "pilot".
> > >If
> > > > you asked Andy Green today about rear steer I don't think he would
> offer
> > >any
> > > > encouragement for the concept.
> > > > Another point I would like to make however, is that none of the
> > > > governing bodies need to worry about adding rules to ban rear steer
> > > > vehicles. It just doesn't work at speed and I don't believe you'll ever
> > >get
> > > > it going fast enough to get into trouble. And if you do somehow
> manage to
> > > > make it work, well God bless you, innovation is what it's all about.
> > > >
> > > > John Beckett, LSR #79
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "john robinson" <john@engr.wisc.edu>
> > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 9:57 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Fuel and Gas Class
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Howdy,
> > > > > ohhhh yeah, Definitions section IV-2 Automobile.(some
> snipping) ....at
> > > > > least 4 wheels not aligned....(snip).. steering assured by at
> least (2)
> > > > > front wheels, .(snip) .....One pair must be on the same transverse
> > > > centerline.
> > > > > OK, then the Special Construction Category statement "Innovation is
> > > > > unlimited." is governed by the definitions sec IV?
> > > > > John still looking at rear steer concept Robinson
> > > > >
> > > > > At 08:22 AM 5/24/00 , you wrote:
> > > > > John,
> > > > >
> > > > > Also look at the portion defining automobile which indicates that at
> > >least
> > > > > two wheels must be on the same axle. There is a statement that
> requires
> > > > the
> > > > > steering to be by the front wheels as our friends with the rear
> steer MR
> > > > > found out a few years ago. Sorry I am unable to quote chapter and
> verse
> > >on
> > > > > this one as my books are in my race day brief case.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dan (you can lose pistons without NOS too) Warner
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: john robinson <john@engr.wisc.edu>
> > > > > To: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2000 5:42 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Fuel and Gas Class
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > howdy,
> > > > > > Andy Green did it like that, only cost 30 million $ or so and took
> > > > what,
> > > > > > 6-7 years..........
> > > > > > I think you >can< run in line wheels, just need to have four of
> > >them(or
> > > > > > more) ifn I remember the rule book on this one....looking it
> up now,
> > > > aha!
> > > > > > ...."must have at least four wheels, but they need not be
> arranged in
> > >a
> > > > > > rectangular configuration" , Streamliner section V page
> 41....is what
> > > > the
> > > > > > '00 rules say...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 10:13 AM 5/23/00 , you wrote:
> > > > > > Should still work, maybe? Per the rule book the wheels must be
> > >offset,
> > > > > > cannot be inline. See Al teagues car. Otherwise isnit it
> classified
> > >as
> > > > a
> > > > > > "ahem" motorcycle or some such? But, adding the stagger control to
> > >the
> > > > > rear
> > > > > > does indeed work same as front stagger. Wow, what a concept!!!
> > > > Shouldn't
> > > > > > take more'n ten years to sort it out...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mayf
> > > > > > At 02:39 PM 5/23/00 EDT, V4GR@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > >Won't work in Jacks car. Front wheels are inline. Have to switch
> > > > system
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >rear wheels. Should work than. Rich Fox
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > L.E. Mayfield
> > > > > > 124 Maximillion Drive
> > > > > > Madison, Al. 35758-8171
> > > > > > ph: 1-256-837-1051
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://home.hiwaay.net/~lemay
> > > > > >
> > > > > > lemay@hiwaay.net
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sunbeam Tiger, B9471136
> > > > > > Sunbeam Alpine Bonneville Land Speed Racer,
> > > > > > '66 Hydroplane Drag Boat (390 FE)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > John Robinson, Mechanician
> > > > > Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
> > > > > 1513 University Ave.
> > > > > Madison, Wi. 53706
> > > > > 608-262-3606
> > > > > FAX 608-265-2316
> > > > > Current World Land Speed Record Holder
> > > > > Bonneville Salt Flats
> > > > > H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
> > > > > 131.333 MPH set 1995
> > > > > 136.666 MPH set 1996
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> > John Robinson, Mechanician
> > Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
> > 1513 University Ave.
> > Madison, Wi. 53706
> > 608-262-3606
> > FAX 608-265-2316
> > Current World Land Speed Record Holder
> > Bonneville Salt Flats
> > H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
> > 131.333 MPH set 1995
> > 136.666 MPH set 1996
John Robinson, Mechanician
Mechanical Engineering University of Wisconsin
1513 University Ave.
Madison, Wi. 53706
608-262-3606
FAX 608-265-2316
Current World Land Speed Record Holder
Bonneville Salt Flats
H/GCC 92 cu.in. 1980 Dodge Colt
131.333 MPH set 1995
136.666 MPH set 1996
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