Marc -
Please drop it. It is making you appear to be a bitter, argumentative
person with too much time on your hands.
You've made it plain what you think of Dean, now I'm asking you to shut up.
-John Friederich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Sayer" <marc@gracieland.org>
To: <datsun-roadsters@autox.team.net>
Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2002 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: datsunparts.com Dashes
> sidney raper wrote:
> >
> > Those are mighty strong words. Let me say that I have not bought
ANYTHING
> > from Dean, so I cannot be a shill. He seems to have some stuff that
other
> > vendors don't carry. Some of it looks darned good. I have heard some
> > issues with Dean, but I have heard similar issues with ALL of the
vendors.
> > All of the vendors serve a purpose.
> >
> > I will close with one rhetorical question - is it better to use a shill
from
> > time to time, or to prostitute a business on the list on a regular
basis? I
> > have heard charges of the latter on this list as well.
> >
> > Caveat Emptor.
>
>
> First, those words weren't really all that strong. I am mightily offended
by
> someone using shills to promote their business (a technique generally used
only
> by con artists and hustlers and not by reputable businesses, that adds the
> apparent extra cachet of a testimonial or endorsement to what is in fact
merely
> self-promotion). I am sorry if my pointing this out upsets folks, but if
> someone acts in a certain way, they have to expect some folks to comment
on it
> (and the caveat in the original post clearly indicates they were expecting
some
> flack). If someone does not like being called a shill, they should stop
being
> one. And if someone does not like being taken to task for using a shill,
again
> the solution is simple, stop using them.
>
> Second, look up the definition of shill. Someone's having, or having not,
> purchased anything from him is irrelevant. Shill - a person who
publicizes or
> praises something for someone - The key being that it is done *for* the
> person being promoted, in otherwords at his request or on his behalf, and
as
> the original post indicated that was exactly the case "he asked if I would
> post some info to the list" However, the original poster would meet even
your
> definition of a shill "I just ordered some parts from Dean at Fairlady
Products
> today..."
>
> Third, the issue of what Dean does or does not carry is also irrelevant.
The
> point is, if he wants to use the list to promote his stuff, let him become
an
> active participant of the list and do his own promotions. Yes all vendors
serve
> a purpose, the issue isn't whether Dean sells stuff for the Roadsters,
it's
> whether he abuses the list by getting people to shill for him on it. By
the
> poster's own admission he *asked* them to make the original post, so there
is
> no question but that he is *intentionally* using shills on the list. Yes
there
> have been nasty comments leveled at all the vendors at one time or
another.
> The fact that everyone gets caught up in that also has no bearing other
than
> to illustrate that the other vendors are on the list and have to face
their
> accusers there, and Dean is not. And no, you have never heard similar
issues
> about Les, Ross, Stan, or Dann because the issues at hand are being on the
list
> and using shills on the list. All three of them are on the list, and none
of
> them use shills on the list.
>
> Fourth, offering up reasonable periodic sales info that is obviously
promotional
> (as Ross does) is fine. It is obvious what the post is and folks can take
it or
> leave it as they see fit. It is above board and clearly an advertisement,
made
> with the approval of the list. It is clear that the person is promoting
> themselves. OTOH making an ad or self-promotion look like its not an ad or
> self-promotion by arranging it to look like it's just some guy who just is
> really so happy with a vendor that he wanted to do the vendor an extra
favor by
> talking him up on the list, is intrinsically deceptive. That's why the
term
> shill has negative connotations. The other vendors on the list in no way
> prostitute themselves on this list. They may *promote* their businesses on
the
> list, but this is done in keeping with the rules of the list. None of them
are
> doing anything base, unworthy, or in exchange for sex, which is the
standard for
> the applicable use of the word prostitute. And most importantly of all,
none of
> them feel the need to resort to shills to promote their businesses on this
> list.
>
> Dean is the only vendor who continually uses shills on the list to promote
his
> business, and that was what I was taking issue with. Whether the other
vendors
> have had upset customers complain about them on the list, or had
competitors
> or friends of competitors bad mouth them on the list, or their hair is
brown,
> or they're under 6 feet tall, or they live in Canada, none of this is
relevant
> to the issues I raised and do not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
Even if
> they ran their business out of their mother's garage, this too would be
> irrelevant and would not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
>
> Please do not take offense at this reply Sidney as none was intended. I
just am
> not willing to let this issue get clouded or have the focus changed. The
issue
> was that Dean again had a shill post a bit of promotion on the list, and I
> finally spoke out against that behavior. If people want to argue that they
have
> no objection to that sort of behavior, that they do not mind someone
trying to
> cash in on the list without even having the courtesy to be on the list,
and the
> list is okay with that sort of thing, then I will shut up. Arguing his
prices or
> parts availability justifying his methods isn't going to work. He can let
you
> know about them just as effectively by being on the list and doing it
himself.
> And then everyone will see it for what it is, another piece of business
> self-promotion. Whether we realize it or not, there is clear evidence that
all
> of us respond more favorably to, and tend to be more trusting of, third
party
> testimonials. This means we are more likely to believe something if we
hear it
> from a third, so-called disinterested party. That tendency on our parts
gives a
> shill's comments extra weight compared to a advertisement unless someone
makes a
> stink and points out that it is really just the someone promoting himself
by
> using the third party. So here I am making the stink.
>
>
>
> --
> Marc Sayer
> 82 280ZXT
> 71 510 2.5 Trans Am vintage racer
>
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