sidney raper wrote:
>
> Those are mighty strong words. Let me say that I have not bought ANYTHING
> from Dean, so I cannot be a shill. He seems to have some stuff that other
> vendors don't carry. Some of it looks darned good. I have heard some
> issues with Dean, but I have heard similar issues with ALL of the vendors.
> All of the vendors serve a purpose.
>
> I will close with one rhetorical question - is it better to use a shill from
> time to time, or to prostitute a business on the list on a regular basis? I
> have heard charges of the latter on this list as well.
>
> Caveat Emptor.
First, those words weren't really all that strong. I am mightily offended by
someone using shills to promote their business (a technique generally used only
by con artists and hustlers and not by reputable businesses, that adds the
apparent extra cachet of a testimonial or endorsement to what is in fact merely
self-promotion). I am sorry if my pointing this out upsets folks, but if
someone acts in a certain way, they have to expect some folks to comment on it
(and the caveat in the original post clearly indicates they were expecting some
flack). If someone does not like being called a shill, they should stop being
one. And if someone does not like being taken to task for using a shill, again
the solution is simple, stop using them.
Second, look up the definition of shill. Someone's having, or having not,
purchased anything from him is irrelevant. Shill - a person who publicizes or
praises something for someone - The key being that it is done *for* the
person being promoted, in otherwords at his request or on his behalf, and as
the original post indicated that was exactly the case "he asked if I would
post some info to the list" However, the original poster would meet even your
definition of a shill "I just ordered some parts from Dean at Fairlady Products
today..."
Third, the issue of what Dean does or does not carry is also irrelevant. The
point is, if he wants to use the list to promote his stuff, let him become an
active participant of the list and do his own promotions. Yes all vendors serve
a purpose, the issue isn't whether Dean sells stuff for the Roadsters, it's
whether he abuses the list by getting people to shill for him on it. By the
poster's own admission he *asked* them to make the original post, so there is
no question but that he is *intentionally* using shills on the list. Yes there
have been nasty comments leveled at all the vendors at one time or another.
The fact that everyone gets caught up in that also has no bearing other than
to illustrate that the other vendors are on the list and have to face their
accusers there, and Dean is not. And no, you have never heard similar issues
about Les, Ross, Stan, or Dann because the issues at hand are being on the list
and using shills on the list. All three of them are on the list, and none of
them use shills on the list.
Fourth, offering up reasonable periodic sales info that is obviously promotional
(as Ross does) is fine. It is obvious what the post is and folks can take it or
leave it as they see fit. It is above board and clearly an advertisement, made
with the approval of the list. It is clear that the person is promoting
themselves. OTOH making an ad or self-promotion look like its not an ad or
self-promotion by arranging it to look like it's just some guy who just is
really so happy with a vendor that he wanted to do the vendor an extra favor by
talking him up on the list, is intrinsically deceptive. That's why the term
shill has negative connotations. The other vendors on the list in no way
prostitute themselves on this list. They may *promote* their businesses on the
list, but this is done in keeping with the rules of the list. None of them are
doing anything base, unworthy, or in exchange for sex, which is the standard
for
the applicable use of the word prostitute. And most importantly of all, none of
them feel the need to resort to shills to promote their businesses on this
list.
Dean is the only vendor who continually uses shills on the list to promote his
business, and that was what I was taking issue with. Whether the other vendors
have had upset customers complain about them on the list, or had competitors
or friends of competitors bad mouth them on the list, or their hair is brown,
or they're under 6 feet tall, or they live in Canada, none of this is relevant
to the issues I raised and do not belong in a rebuttal of my comments. Even if
they ran their business out of their mother's garage, this too would be
irrelevant and would not belong in a rebuttal of my comments.
Please do not take offense at this reply Sidney as none was intended. I just am
not willing to let this issue get clouded or have the focus changed. The issue
was that Dean again had a shill post a bit of promotion on the list, and I
finally spoke out against that behavior. If people want to argue that they have
no objection to that sort of behavior, that they do not mind someone trying to
cash in on the list without even having the courtesy to be on the list, and the
list is okay with that sort of thing, then I will shut up. Arguing his prices or
parts availability justifying his methods isn't going to work. He can let you
know about them just as effectively by being on the list and doing it himself.
And then everyone will see it for what it is, another piece of business
self-promotion. Whether we realize it or not, there is clear evidence that all
of us respond more favorably to, and tend to be more trusting of, third party
testimonials. This means we are more likely to believe something if we hear it
from a third, so-called disinterested party. That tendency on our parts gives a
shill's comments extra weight compared to a advertisement unless someone makes a
stink and points out that it is really just the someone promoting himself by
using the third party. So here I am making the stink.
--
Marc Sayer
82 280ZXT
71 510 2.5 Trans Am vintage racer
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