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I have a MK1 with a 260 bored 0.030 over with a mild cam, headers, ford
cast iron 4bbl intake, stock cooling system. The thermostat is a 160 and I
was told that the cooling system would work better with a 180 thermostat
because the system would work more efficiently and shed more heat at the
higher temperature. Not sure if this is true but seems as though that may
make sense.
I found that if the air temperature is below 70 the car runs around 120,
above 80 degrees at cruising speed it stays around 160 and around 220 at
idle. Not sure what happens when the air temperature is above 85 to 90
because it is no fun driving around in a microwave so I drive a backup 911
with ac.
My 2 cents on the subject.
Bob
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On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Larry Mayfield via Tigers <
tigers@autox.team.net> wrote:
> Thank you for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your
> suggestion, i.e. =E2=80=9CTiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D and=
it was the first
> thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and will do a more detailed
> review for myself as a bit of time goes on.
>
> I must say these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and
> conducting the experiment and making comparisons. I am going to comment =
of
> the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call missing,
> elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results. It is going
> to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol.
>
>
>
> It was *not* very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be
> pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant conditions,
> the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results which do not se=
em
> to have been addressed as the =E2=80=9CWhy does it overheat at idle?=E2=
=80=9D question,
> at least, I think that was the question. So, just who the dickens am I to
> question anything that these men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test
> engineer and manager for a large Aerospace company and did a *lot* of
> test analyses preceded by test design to make sure that the UUT was set u=
p
> to produce the spec conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectl=
y
> as could be determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed goo=
d.
>
> 1. The first thing was just how bad was the engine over heating at
> idle? The conditions should have contained a detailed description of =
the
> same parameters used in the test. The atmospheric conditions, the abso=
lute
> air temperature, the absolute air pressure (*not* baro), the humidity,
> and altitude, entering the system. The system is defined as everythin=
g
> surrounding the vehicle. Why is this important? Well, the conditions =
need
> to be replicated each time a test run is made. If you want to know tha=
t the
> changes made later have an effect, plus or minus. Take humidity, humi=
d air
> has less air in it, lol. Water vapor is less dense that the atmospheri=
c
> make up and that means that the heat transfer rate is altered. Wha? Ye=
s,
> heat is absorbed by the *mass* of coolant flowing both in the system
> and then into the ambient air. The cooling air enthalpy and entropy c=
an be
> calculated, with the help of =E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts=
with this data as to
> how well the ambient can cool something. Flow rate of the cooling air=
is a *key
> element* but so is the *actual mass* of the air (with humidity) that
> flows through the radiator and into the engine compartment, and then i=
nto
> the surrounding ambient air. Heat only flows from hot to cold and the
> smaller the difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the ai=
r
> flow rate can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at =
seal
> level with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is *t=
he
> mass* of and the particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is impo=
rtant
> If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle issue, then =
the
> air was a few degrees warmer. If outside, the temp and abs pressure
> (psia) is needed along with the humidity to know how well the system w=
as
> performing.
> 2. The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As has been
> stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator
> antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from freezing, it =
also
> increases the boiling point. But it also adds protection to the iron a=
nd
> aluminum and other metallic components through which the coolant flows=
. An
> analysis for the constituents of the coolant could be made to determin=
e
> just how effective it is as a heat transfer mechanism both in the engi=
ne
> and radiator at operating conditions. The flow rate through the radio =
need
> quantifying: a flow meter placed into the radiator water pump feed wou=
ld be
> an excellent place to start. The flow rate with coolant out and the ex=
it
> temperature and pressure measured, And the ambient conditions at that =
time,
> a better analysis of any changes can be made. It should be noted that
> there are two other methods of cooling that come into play as well. Th=
at is
> convection and conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, t=
he
> oil in the pan and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant in=
it
> all come into play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the materi=
als
> need to be acquired along with their surface area and external conditi=
ons
> found in order to get an accurate analysis. Another is radiation from=
the
> surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the infrared heat so to
> speak send heat out as photons heating everything the radiation touche=
s.
> And convection, the air that cools the exterior of the engine as well =
as
> the engine bay must have air flow to remove the heat: those surfaces =
all
> need to be monitored as well.
> 3. Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn of the engine. The air
> fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine put into the best
> operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean burn is hot=
ter,
> so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system will melt pi=
stons
> (been there, done that). The stochiometric air fuel ratio needs to be=
the
> same for every test. At the best burn value. Even a too rich burn ca=
n
> cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp and air pressure should b=
e
> monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition that leads to unexpected=
heat
> being generated. Flow meters on the engine air intake and fuel as wel=
l as
> air and fuel temperature are needed.
>
> Was the experiment invalid? No, it was not. It provided useful,
> information that many had not through about and there are things that wer=
e
> made to that should have changed the results more than they appeared to
> change. I congratulate them for the effort they put into this!
>
>
>
> If I was to do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics fo=
r
> concise parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the effect o=
f
> the changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega 2560 modul=
e,
> a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful of pressure
> sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good thermodynamics textbook and =
go
> at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial data output capability which can be
> recorded as well as a serial plotter which can display and record all th=
e
> data channels virtually simultaneously. All can be exported to excel if
> needed for individual parameter display.
>
>
>
> Or just drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time
> ago an dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider
> doing a repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for the
> notion that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer to th=
e
> cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me approaching 81
> years of age and slowing way, way, down.
>
>
>
> Mayf, twfs 210.779 mph out the back door=E2=80=A6
>
>
>
> *From:* Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *LARRY
> PAULICK via Tigers
> *Sent:* Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM
> *To:* Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* tigers@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
>
>
>
> Dr. M, check the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for
> Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point fo=
r
> finding that study, others may have a direct source.
>
>
>
> On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Buck, I live in the southern alps :)
>
> 40 Celsius and 2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and
> altitudes.
>
>
>
> Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net=
>
> ha scritto:
>
> Owain, have you encountered either high outside air temps or high
> altitudes when using Evans in your Tiger?
>
>
>
> Buck
>
>
>
> *From:* Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM
> *To:* LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1@verizon.net>
> *Cc:* Buck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net>; tigers@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
>
>
>
> Assuming all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the jo=
b
> in my car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. My car
> ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect radiator.
> As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead it is fine.
>
>
>
> My reason for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I
> struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it was
> just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I could get a ne=
w
> brass one I would certainly prefer that.
>
>
>
> Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1@verizon.net>
> ha scritto:
>
> Another issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators are
> lighter but brass transfers heat more efficiently.
>
>
>
> When I redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass
> retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not affected.
>
>
>
> Also if you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed impelle=
r
> type water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket companies sell
> them already set up this way, but you can buy just the impeller plate fro=
m
> Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. Pumping efficiency i=
s
> greatly improved.
>
>
>
> TEAE did a study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This excellent
> engineering study is still applicable today and well worth reading,
> dispelling a lot of myths.
>
>
>
> Another design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion o=
f
> the fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator then go=
es
> down to the ground and circles back through the front of the radiator, at
> rest.
>
>
>
> I know this for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air
> recirculating.
>
>
>
> I fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost
> plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air
> through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in
> motion.
>
>
>
> Bottom line it all works and I don't overheat.
>
>
>
> I have to laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up so
> much space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars and h=
ow
> they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another myth.
>
>
>
> On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the tiger with the 500hp
> motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so had to switch off even
> back to water and antifreeze. It worked sort of ok with the dale radiato=
r
> but then I switched to another brand radiator and it just couldn=E2=80=99=
t keep the
> temps down. Pretty sure it would be doable with an efficient and lower
> power motor if all the other cooling problems were taken care of.
>
>
>
> Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers <
> tigers@autox.team.net> ha scritto:
>
> In August of the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I =
put Evans
> in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in front of a
> rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an almost 5-thousan=
d
> mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La Crosse via I80/I90 to
> attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the way home. Temperatures we=
re
> frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a test.
>
>
>
> The Evans did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its inferior
> specific heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the engine
> heat.
>
>
>
> The carb got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and the
> engine stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes above
> 4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the same AAA
> tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly drained
> maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with plain water s=
o
> I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred crossing the Mojave =
in
> the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced the Evans with water,
> adding Water Wetter for corrosion protection.
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific =
heat (or
> ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is something like
> .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not do the job. Fro=
m
> my experience I=E2=80=99d say one would have to be exceptionally brave to=
use it,
> especially with a stock radiator system or with a more powerful engine
> which will place even more demand on the Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling sys=
tem. (BTW
> in the Tiger we drove on that trip, we had removed the stock block under
> the carb that hot radiator fluid passes through which probably have made
> even more of a problem.)
>
>
>
> Buck Trippel
>
> Ps I wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more
> detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =E2=80=93 I think it=
was
> published in both the TEAE and CAT newletters.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Dr. T. Y.
> McDowell
> *Sent:* Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:06 AM
> *To:* Tiger's List <tigers@autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
>
>
>
> Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless Coolant?
>
> It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone who's
> using it as I'm considering it.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
>
> Tym McDowell
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> tigers@autox.team.net
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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> _______________________________________________
>
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>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I have a MK1 with a 260 bored 0.030 over with a mild =
cam, headers, ford cast iron 4bbl intake, stock cooling system. The thermos=
tat is a 160 and I was told that the cooling system would work better with =
a 180 thermostat because the system would work more efficiently and shed mo=
re heat at the higher temperature. Not sure if this is true but seems as th=
ough that may make sense.</div><div>I found that if the air temperature is =
below 70 the car runs around 120, above 80 degrees at cruising speed it sta=
ys around 160 and around 220 at idle. Not sure what happens when the air te=
mperature is above 85=C2=A0 to 90 because it is no fun driving around in a =
microwave so I drive a backup 911 with ac.</div><div>My 2 cents on the subj=
ect.<br></div><div>Bob<br> </div><br></div><div id=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1=
B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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</table><a href=3D"#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" heigh=
t=3D"1"></a></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"=
gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Larry Mayfield via Tigers <<=
a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a>> wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"=
overflow-wrap: break-word;" lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-473273868=
1393012823WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thank you for the suggestion=
on finding the paper. I used exactly your suggestion, i.e.=C2=A0 =E2=80=9C=
Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D and it was the first thing that =
popped up, lol.=C2=A0 I have scanned it and will do a more detailed review =
for myself as a bit of time goes on. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l">I must say these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and c=
onducting the experiment and making comparisons.=C2=A0 I am going to commen=
t of the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call missin=
g, elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results.=C2=A0 It is=
going to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol. <u></u><u></u></=
p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">It =
was <i>not</i> very rigorous, in my opinion.=C2=A0 Let me explain, lest I b=
e pilloried.=C2=A0 There are many parameters for the air and coolant condit=
ions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results which do no=
t seem to have been addressed as the =C2=A0=E2=80=9CWhy does it overheat at=
idle?=E2=80=9D =C2=A0question, at least, I think that was the question. So=
, just who the dickens am I to question anything that these men did? Well, =
I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager for a large Aerospace comp=
any and did a <b>lot</b> of test analyses preceded by test design to make s=
ure that the UUT was set up to produce the spec conditions and thus the res=
ults as nearly as perfectly as could be determined.=C2=A0 What these tester=
s did was pretty dad gummed good. <u></u><u></u></p><ol style=3D"margin-top=
:0in" type=3D"A" start=3D"1"><li class=3D"gmail-m_-4732738681393012823MsoLi=
stParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">The first thing was just how bad was=
the engine over heating at idle?=C2=A0 The conditions should have containe=
d a detailed description of the same parameters used in the test. The atmos=
pheric conditions, the absolute air temperature, the absolute air pressure =
(<u>not</u> baro), the humidity, and altitude, =C2=A0entering the system. T=
he system is defined as everything surrounding the vehicle.=C2=A0 Why is th=
is important? Well, the conditions need to be replicated each time a test r=
un is made. If you want to know that the changes made later have an effect,=
plus or minus.=C2=A0 Take humidity, humid air has less air in it, lol. Wat=
er vapor is less dense that the atmospheric make up and that means that the=
heat transfer rate is altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed by the <b>mass</=
b> of coolant flowing both in the system and then into the ambient air.=C2=
=A0 The cooling air enthalpy and entropy can be calculated, with the help o=
f =E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts with this data as to how well t=
he ambient can cool something.=C2=A0 Flow rate of the cooling air is a <b>k=
ey element</b> but so is the <b>actual mass</b> of the air (with humidity) =
that flows through the radiator and into the engine compartment, and then i=
nto the surrounding ambient air.=C2=A0 Heat only flows from hot to cold and=
the smaller the difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the ai=
r flow rate can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at sea=
l level with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is <b>th=
e mass</b> of and the particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is impo=
rtant =C2=A0=C2=A0If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle i=
ssue, then the air was a few degrees warmer.=C2=A0 =C2=A0If outside, the te=
mp and abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the humidity to know how we=
ll the system was performing. <u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-4732=
738681393012823MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">The engine coola=
nt needs to be examined in detail.=C2=A0 As has been stated, water is the V=
ERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator antifreeze is more than just =
to prevent the coolant from freezing, it also increases the boiling point. =
But it also adds protection to the iron and aluminum and other metallic com=
ponents through which the coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents o=
f the coolant could be made to determine just how effective it is as a heat=
transfer mechanism both in the engine and radiator at operating conditions=
. The flow rate through the radio need quantifying: a flow meter placed int=
o the radiator water pump feed would be an excellent place to start. The fl=
ow rate with coolant out and the exit temperature and pressure measured, An=
d the ambient conditions at that time, a better analysis of any changes can=
be made.=C2=A0 It should be noted that there are two other methods of cool=
ing that come into play as well. That is convection and conduction. The con=
duction of heat through the block, the oil in the pan and pan, the head(s),=
=C2=A0 and anything that has coolant in it all come into play, so al the he=
at transfer coefficients of the materials need to be acquired along with th=
eir surface area and external conditions found in order to get an accurate =
analysis.=C2=A0 Another is radiation from the surfaces of the engine. The h=
eat signatures or the infrared heat so to speak send heat out as photons he=
ating everything the radiation touches. And convection, the air that cools =
the exterior of the engine as well as the engine bay must have air flow to =
remove the heat: =C2=A0those surfaces all need to be monitored as well. =C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"gmail-m_-4732738681393012823MsoListParag=
raph" style=3D"margin-left:0in">Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn=
of the engine. The air fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine pu=
t into the best operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean =
burn is hotter, so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system w=
ill melt pistons (been there, done that).=C2=A0 The stochiometric air fuel =
ratio needs to be the same for every test.=C2=A0 At the best burn value.=C2=
=A0 Even a too rich burn can cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp a=
nd air pressure should be monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition tha=
t leads to unexpected heat being generated.=C2=A0 Flow meters on the engine=
air intake and fuel as well as air and fuel temperature are needed. <u></u=
><u></u></li></ol><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:red;backgroun=
d:yellow none repeat scroll 0% 0%">Was the experiment invalid? No, it was n=
ot. It provided useful, information that many had not through about and the=
re are things that were made to that should have changed the results more t=
han they appeared to change.=C2=A0 I congratulate them for the effort they =
put into this</span><span style=3D"color:red">! <u></u><u></u></span></p><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">If I wa=
s to do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics for concise=
parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the effect of the cha=
ngeable components.=C2=A0 I would get myself an Arduino Mega 2560 module, a=
pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful of pressure sensor=
s, water and fuel flow meters,=C2=A0 A good thermodynamics textbook and go =
at it.=C2=A0 The Arduino IDE has a serial data output capability which can =
be recorded as well as a serial plotter which can display and record all =
=C2=A0the data channels virtually simultaneously. All can be exported to ex=
cel if needed for individual parameter display. =C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Or just =
drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time ago an dst=
uff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider doing a repeat=
of the work done to date with my additions, except for the notion that I a=
m not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer to the cinderela time,=
the clock is ticking now for sure at me approaching 81 years of age and sl=
owing way, way, down. <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mayf, twfs 210.779 mph out the back do=
or=E2=80=A6 <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></=
p><div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolo=
r;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0=
in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Tigers <<a href=3D"mailto:ti=
gers-bounces@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">tigers-bounces@autox.team.ne=
t</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>LARRY PAULICK via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Sund=
ay, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> Owain Lloyd <<a href=3D"mailto:ow=
ain.lloyd@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>><br><b>=
Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">tigers@a=
utox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<u=
></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dr. M, check the Tigers East Alpine East website or =
do a web search for Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study.=C2=A0 This is a very=
good starting point for finding that study, others may have a direct sourc=
e.<u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u></u>=
</p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a href=3D"mailto:=
owain.lloyd@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> wrot=
e:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Buck, I live in the southern alps :)<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">40 Celsius and 2500m.=C2=A0 But=
was doing the same at normal temps and altitudes.<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel <<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:bucktrippel@verizon.net" target=3D"_blank">bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>=
> ha scritto:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-color:c=
urrentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none no=
ne none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt=
;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Owain=
, have you encountered either high outside air temps or high altitudes when=
using Evans in your Tiger?<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Buck<u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div style=3D"borde=
r-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;border-style:solid none =
none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal"><b>From:</b> Owain Lloyd <<a href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, =
July 2, 2022 8:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> LARRY PAULICK <<a href=3D"mailto:lpau=
lick1@verizon.net" target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@verizon.net</a>><br><b>Cc=
:</b> Buck Trippel <<a href=3D"mailto:bucktrippel@verizon.net"; target=3D=
"_blank">bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>>; <a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.te=
am.net" target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Assuming all those =
things are done, evans is still not quite up to the job in my car.=C2=A0 Mo=
st of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car.=C2=A0 My car ran too ho=
t even at speed with evans and the less than perfect radiator.=C2=A0 As I s=
aid, with a better radiator or with water instead it is fine.<u></u><u></u>=
</p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">My reason for preferring brass is that it can be easil=
y soldered.=C2=A0 I struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but=
eventually it was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair.=C2=
=A0 If I could get a new brass one I would certainly prefer that.<u></u><u>=
</u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><div=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lpaulick1@verizon.net"; target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@ver=
izon.net</a>> ha scritto:<u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"bo=
rder-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-s=
tyle:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in=
0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another =
issue is aluminum versus brass radiators.=C2=A0 Aluminum radiators are ligh=
ter but =C2=A0brass transfers heat more efficiently.<u></u><u></u></p><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">When I redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row bras=
s retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not affected.<u>=
</u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Also if you're replacing or having over=
heating problems, a closed impeller type water pump is much more efficient.=
Some aftermarket companies sell them already set up this way, but you can =
buy just the impeller plate from Summit for a very low price and install it=
yourself. Pumping efficiency is greatly improved.<u></u><u></u></p></div><=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">TEAE did a study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This e=
xcellent engineering study is still applicable today and well worth reading=
, dispelling a lot of myths.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNor=
mal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Another desi=
gn problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion of the fan shro=
ud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator then goes down to the=
ground and circles back through the front of the radiator, at rest.<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I know this for a fact since I did smoke test a=
nd watched the air recirculating.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I fabri=
cated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost plastic air =
dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air through the rad=
iator and continue towards the rear of the car while in motion.<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Bottom line it all works and I don't overheat.<u=
></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><=
/div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have to laugh at the commentos who keeps=
saying that the V8 takes up so much space that that's why they overhea=
t. Just look at today's cars and how they fill the engine bay and it be=
comes apparent this is another myth.<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div></d=
iv><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.co=
m</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u=
><u></u></p></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div><blockquote style=
=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=
Yep.=C2=A0 I run in most cars with no problems but in the tiger with the 50=
0hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so had to switch off ev=
en back to water and antifreeze.=C2=A0 It worked sort of ok with the dale r=
adiator but then I switched to another brand radiator and it just couldn=E2=
=80=99t keep the temps down. =C2=A0 Pretty sure it would be doable with an =
efficient and lower power motor if all the other cooling problems were take=
n care of.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Il gior=
no sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers <<a href=3D"mailto:=
tigers@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>> ha s=
critto:</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-color:cur=
rentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rgb(204,204,204);border-style:none none=
none solid;border-width:medium medium medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;m=
argin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">In August of =
the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I put Evans in a =
Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in front of a rather=
stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an almost 5-thousand mile r=
oad test by driving from Los Angeles to La Crosse via I80/I90 to attend the=
TEAE United and then Route 66 on the way home. Temperatures were frequentl=
y at 100 degrees. So it got quite a test.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif=
">The Evans did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its inferior=
specific heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the engine hea=
t.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><u=
></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font=
-family:"Times New Roman",serif">The carb got so hot the fuel per=
colated (boiled) inside the bowls and the engine stalled lean. This weaknes=
s was exacerbated at altitudes above 4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs =
near 100 I ended up on the same AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then=
gave up and reluctantly drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, =
replacing it with plain water so I could get home. However the percolation =
reoccurred crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I re=
placed the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion protection.=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><u><=
/u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-f=
amily:"Times New Roman",serif">I don=E2=80=99t have the numbers o=
ff the top of my head but the specific heat (or ability to transfer heat) o=
f water is 1.00 while Evans is something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water=
. For me, Evans just did not do the job. From my experience I=E2=80=99d say=
one would have to be exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stoc=
k radiator system or with a more powerful engine which will place even more=
demand on the Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we dr=
ove on that trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot ra=
diator fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a problem=
.)</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:=
13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-famil=
y:"Times New Roman",serif">Buck Trippel</span><u></u><u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Tim=
es New Roman",serif">Ps I wrote up some of this years ago and I believ=
e it contained a more detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =
=E2=80=93 I think it was published in both the TEAE and CAT newletters.</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=
=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p><div><div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor cu=
rrentcolor;border-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padd=
ing:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;=
font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">From:</span></b><span style=
=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">=C2=A0T=
igers <<a href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank=
">tigers-bounces@autox.team.net</a>>=C2=A0<b>On Behalf Of=C2=A0</b>Dr. T=
. Y. McDowell<br><b>Sent:</b>=C2=A0Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:06 AM<br><b>To:=
</b>=C2=A0Tiger's List <<a href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; tar=
get=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b>=C2=A0[Tiger=
s] Evans Waterless Cooling</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roma=
n",serif">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;c=
olor:rgb(51,51,51)">Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless =
Coolant?=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;co=
lor:rgb(51,51,51)">It has a boiling point of 375 (F).=C2=A0 I'd like to=
hear from anyone who's using it as I'm considering it.=C2=A0</span=
><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(=
51,51,51)">Thanks in advance,=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:"Helvetic=
a",sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></di=
v><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Helvetica",sans-serif;color:rgb(51,51,51)">Tym McDowell=C2=A0</span=
><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-bottom:12pt"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New R=
oman",serif">_______________________________________________<br><br><a=
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.=
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<td style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href=3D"http://www.avg=
.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_campa=
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