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RE: Ladies classes

To: autox mailing list <>
Subject: RE: Ladies classes
From: "Mark J. Andy" <>
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 14:09:21 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 26 Sep 2000, miket wrote:
> I guess that was brought up...  Eliminating ladies classes sounds like a 
> rather drastic solution to this "problem".  I'm sure most of us could think a 
> quite a few other solutions that would have fewer secondary conseqeunces...


> >(2) People feel slighted when a woman wins big trophies and
> >contingencies while running slower than people who drove the same
> >class and won nothing.
> I suppose some people may feel this way. I still don't understand these 
> feeling though.  In this case, the bottom  line is that I didn't win my class.
> Why should I try to take the reward and recognition away from someone else 
> who did win a class even if it is similar to mine and they ran slower than me.

If you replace "Similar" with "the same" perhaps you can see why this
bothers some people.  And I don't think its about "taking someone's trophy
away" as much as it is about getting the recognition you deserve.  If I'm
20th, that's great, only I can fix that.  But it certainly can be annoying
to finish 20th in the identical car as another compeitor that finishes 1st
going slower than you and with 10 years more experience.

> Taking their trophy away doesn't give me the satisfaction  of winning - only 
> the satisfaction of taking the award and recognition away from someone else 
> who may well have worked harder than I did at achieving their goals.  It 
> to me that this is a rather selfish position.

And may well not have had to work _nearly_ as hard as you.  Classing,
after all, exists to group us with like competitors so that we all have an
"equal" chance of doing well.  The point various folks have made is that
using sex to differentiate classes doesn't seem to have any validity from
a performance standpoint.  You might as well use hair color or skin color 
or some other irrevelent attribute of the compeitors.

> Is this different than giving trophies to kids in carts because you are 
> sure you would be faster in the same cart??  Or to the winner of the rookie 
> class at a local event??

In each case there your class differentiator is experience.  That's a
proven performance attribute, unlike sex.

> Or to take the analogy even further, I'm sure that the winners of the
> NBA championship don't feel slighted because the winners of the CBA
> championship get a (possibly larger) trophy.  Or in intramural sports
> where there are severel levels (A,B,and C leagues), each with their
> own championship.  I now that winning the C league Championship is not
> the same as winnign the B or A league.  And the A and B league winners
> are pretty sure they could whip our butts any day without even working
> up a sweat.

So are you saying that ladies class champions are worse drivers than men's
class champions?  Its hard to interpret that any other way.  I, for one,
am NOT willing to say that.

In addition, in each of your cases above there's motivation for the
competitor to move up in the ranks.  That doesn't exist in the ladies
classes, with the exception of the personal ideas of the ladies
compeitors which are sorely put to the test by things like contingency

> This I don't understand either.  What is the wrong message?? That we have our 
> sport structured to encourage participation, competition, and fun for 
> who wants to participate?  If this is a bad message then the world is in real 
> trouble!!

But that isn't the only message.  The other message is that women can't
drive and therefore need their own classes.  I have a large problem with
that message.

> Thanks Mark!!!  Discussions like this are much more productive (and fun)  
> the emotion is removed....

I agree.  I really thought I was gonna get hammered when I brought this
topic up.  Thanks to everyone involved for keeping as detached as


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